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why would you choose to compete with the model 3?
Ioniq 6 SE is roughly as affordable as Model 3.
Ehhhh. Better equipped it ends up being quite a bit more, and isn’t eligible for the federal tax incentive unless you play the lease game which doesn’t work sanely in all states.
I think the base models for both are well equipped but I agree the tax incentives have to factor into the equation.
Or just get a Tesla and save yourself a future headache? https://youtu.be/92w5doU68D8?si=KgIZgYdSP5OD0bIH
You know Tesla is opening up their charging network, right? And another network will be built soon. I like Robert Dunn a lot and sub to both of his channels, and I remember this video when it came out. I think he’s right in criticizing EA, but in my experience it hasn’t been that bad.
For me, a slightly longer charge time for the couple trips I take every year is more than offset by having a much better car with better NVH, better build quality, better reliability, and a gauge cluster.
You clearly never owned a Tesla as you brush off all the pros and over dramatize the cons. Im not gonna get into a debate over it as my comment was off topic to begin with though.
I owned an '18 Model 3 that I bought new and traded in late last year. The pros I can think of are 1) a better charging network, and 2) faster 0-60. Literally everything else about my BMW i4 is better. The 5.8 second 0-60 in my i4 is fast enough, and the charging network has been good enough for the couple of times a year I use it.
The only real reason to buy a Model 3 now is price with the latest price drops. But you get what you pay for.
Yeah this is just incredibly ignorant.
I genuinely don’t know why it’s a radical opinion that a BMW is better than a Tesla. Tesla isn’t a luxury brand, BMW is, and they’re now priced to reflect that.
The powertrain of a Tesla is good, but so is the powertrain of the i4. My subjective opinion is that the Model 3 is faster, but the i4 is more refined. I prefer the i4. Plus, the lack of blended braking in the Model 3 (something every non-Tesla EV has) is a non-starter for me since one-pedal driving makes my wife carsick.
I have driven many newer Model 3’s as Hertz rentals. Yes they have more features, but that doesn’t fix the build quality, NVH, or interior quality.
Again, I’m not saying that the Model 3 is bad. It’s a good car for the price. I personally will never buy a Tesla again because of the many suspension and HVAC issues I had, but I’ve talked to other people who had great experiences with theirs.
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Define “affordable”.
Because compact SUVs have replaced the average midsize sedan. If you’re going to make an EV, the safe bet is to make the most popular body style first.
The Sub format also alleviates some of the compromises the sedan body style makes for EVs, such as high floors and short seats.
Because compact SUVs have replaced the average midsize sedan.
I think you mean CUVs or crossovers. Not that many people are buying SUVs.
Am I fighting a lost battle here? Have we got to the point where we’re just going to call every damn thing a SUV now, and then have to invent some new word for actual SUVs-as-such? I dunno. . . Off-roader? Or just go back to calling them all a “jeep” regardless of make and model?
Are you trying to tell me that my Bolt EUV isn’t an SUV?!! 😉
Well it does have the more stylized useless hood
Damn it’s not that serious.
There are more important battles to fight!
Am I fighting a lost battle here?
Yes. “SUV” has never had a formal definition, it means whatever you want.
Everyone else laughed at Tesla first. Then kept watching their slow growth, often laughing (but softer). Then Model3 came out and they panicked and started trying to catch up a 10 year advantage Tesla has almost kept intact to date.
Also: Rivian, Tesla and other EV only manufacturers have not the problems to convert existing, outdated and often unusable factories to EV production, nor have the burden of dealerships. Finally, Tesla doesn’t outsource almost anything. This means that they can improve their cars every week, and adapt to any change they must introduce. When Ford has an outsourced piece of hardware coming from China being replaced with a different one, the time they need to adapt their car software can be much much longer than the time Tesla need to do the same with an in-house itemFinally, Tesla doesn’t outsource almost anything
They still outsource battery cells. Also, the quality of the old, outsourced Brembo brakes and Continental suspensions were far higher than those in a new Tesla. Many Continental air suspensions from 2013 are good as new after 250,000 km, which is a feat even Porsche and Audi will struggle to beat. Nowadays, air suspension failures in the S and X happen allt he time once the five year warranty is expired.
Teslas frequent software updates do more harm than good, and the updates often have bugs in them.
Back in the day you couldn’t get away with saying there here because the gullibles needed to believe Tesla was a wild rnd company to make the financials work
you must have got here before me. this place was wildly anti tesla four or so years ago, and has steadily softened its stance, probably as more and more drivers realized that having the speedometer near the middle of the dash isn’t the end of the world.
True. To be fair, I was also a Tesla Stan once. All the stories were “anecdotes” that wouldn’t happen to me. One drive unit and the battery failed on the warranty. The other DU also failed on the warranty.
The new owner is experiencing battery problems now. 🤡 I sold the car cheaply “as is” and warned him that this could happen anytime, though.
To be fair, it was indeed a cheap car to own while under warranty, apart from the insurance.
Finally, Tesla doesn’t outsource almost anything
nothing except for batteries
10 year advantage Tesla has almost kept intact to date.
Could you name so domains were Tesla is 10 years ahead?
the problems to convert existing, outdated and often unusable factories to EV production
That’s what manufacturers do with all new cars or major refreshes. Basically everything inside gets sold and retooled. Look at european manufacturers, all their factories are retooled ICE ones and quality wise these doesn’t seem to be worse.
nor have the burden of dealerships
What burden exactly?
Tesla doesn’t outsource almost anything
Just battery cells, suspension parts, radar chips, cameras, tires, wheels, plastic parts, fasteners etc.
When Ford has an outsourced piece of hardware coming from China being replaced with a different one, the time they need to adapt their car software can be much much longer than the time Tesla need to do the same with an in-house item
Hm, Tesla was using Bosch radar and switched to cameras and their autopilot software with vision only is still lagging behind the Mobileye+Bosch Radar one.
Rivian, Tesla and other EV only manufacturers have not the problems to convert existing, outdated and often unusable factories to EV production
FactCheck: False
- Tesla converted Numi Fremont, originally built by GM & Toyota to EV production
- Rivian converted the old Mitsubishi factory in Normal IL to EV production
- Lordstown tried to start EV production in the shuttered GM Lordstown factory before running out of money
Tesla still outsources thousands of parts and components.
You’re talking about the US right? There are plenty outside the US because there is competition.
Those will not come to the US until the charging situation improves.
Alto tariffs and protectionist tax rebate policies. We have pretty much the same models in Canada as in the USA, but the prices are alot more comparative across categories because we don’t impose punitive tariffs and treat all vehicles equally for incentives.
Because ICE legacy are Not good faith EV manufacturers.
Brushing aside the fact that the Model 3 is so cheap because:
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Tesla genuinely nailed their manufacturing efficiency down
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Model 3 is statistically the the worst built mass production car on the roads, by a large margin
It’s largely because people don’t want sedans as much anymore, so companies aren’t prioritizing them.
Also bear in mind that the Model 3 LR is $46,000, more expensive than the longer ranged Ioniq 6. Tesla advertises prices after both potential tax credit and potential gas savings.
I’ll point out the Model 3 LR is AWD, while the cheaper base I6 is not - once you add AWD to it they’re the same price, but the Ionia requires the lease loophole for incentives and may not work in every state sanely (double taxed). After that it’s not hard to quickly add options to the 6 for better equipment that makes it even more.
In my current shopping I have the 6 noted as about 10k more than the model 3.
That’s a USA political and policy issue, not a manufacturer affordability issue. Ioniq 6, Polestar 2,BMW i4 and Model 3 are about the same price in countries with less protectionist trade policies.
In my EU country AWD versions of the polestar, ioniq and bmw start at 10 000, 13 000 and 20 000 euros more than model 3 LR. So you could say tesla is competing on price
Maybe so. But I live in the world I live in, not the one I’d wish to live in.
Here the Model 3 is about 10-15k cheaper than the Koreans, and 20k cheaper than the I4 (which generally doesn’t qualify for any incentives). Haven’t looked much at the polestar - various reasons there.
I don’t disagree with you in your situation. However, the title of the original post is a general statement, not specific to the USA. This sub, as do many others on Reddit, seems to ignore the world outside the USA.
Because it’s primarily a US website, and the majority of posters are still based in the United States.
Most car questions are region specific; someone asking “why aren’t there more affordable options except the Model 3” is almost certainly American focused as the question is invalid anywhere else - the context tells us that. If they were in Europe the answer is “there are a ton priced the same” and from my understanding, in China it’s one of the more expensive ones. Given those are the primarily the places asking questions like this, logic says…
In other words - the OP is invalid most other places where BYD and some of the other oddball brands sell, so by basic deduction we can safely assume American. If we try to assume global answers for everything, without using deduction, we wouldn’t be able to answer questions much at all - they’d all be “it depends”.
Linking to a troll site to back up your claim is classic. The article you linked to is about Tesla not having maintenance done before going to inspections so 14% of them fail which has nothing to do with reliability.
Ah yes, an article citing a well-renowned German regulatory body, a classic troll.
The article mentions nothing of the sort, and given that these are inspections of everyone’s cars, you’re saying that simply all Model 3 owners refuse to have their car serviced? And that 15% of them have failing brakes or suspension after only 2-3 years regardless?
Tesla does not do any inspections prior to the regulatory check. ALL other manufacturers do. Teslas failed primarily due to brake issues, and, in most cases, other manufacturer dealerships fix these issues so that they don’t flag on the regulatory inspection.
Those numbers are artificially inflated, and the fixes for Teslas are the same as all other manufacturers. The work is just done after the regulatory fail, as opposed to before, thereby making those numbers nonsensical to the point you’re trying to make.
I believe it’s that Tesla does nothing special for maintenance related to those inspections, whereas other carmakers offer periodic checkups timed to come just before the inspections so that their stats will look better than reality.
The other issue is that regen being set up for “1-pedal driving” means the brakes often get underused, and so rust etc can build up on the pads.
Strangely, the Model 3 is Tesla’s most reliable vehicle and one of the most reliable US market EVs in general according to Consumer Reports. Does Germany not sell the other Tesla models?
I’m surprised you haven’t been blasted for posting that link here
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because EVs need space for the batteries and a Sedan doesnt offer a lot of space for them.
go sit in the rear of a model 3 or model S as an adult and you can easily lick your knees in your normal sitting position.
the alternative is what Porsche and Lucid did where they dont put any batteries into the rear passenger foot well but that makes production more complex and means you need to put these batteries somewhere else.
beside this SUVs sell better.
The vast majority of cars never see anyone in the back seat. The buyer demographic for sedans is there.
However, what the customer wants (much less ‘needs’) has very little to do with what the industry is willing to produce.
Currently it’s just that SUVs sell well and traditional automakers aren’t making a lot of EVs…so they might as well make SUVs because there they make the most profit.
I’m sitting here giggling at the mental image of back seat knee lickers
I have salty knees.
careful, you’re gonna wake up all the flat floor fetishists
Ur not looking hard enough. I got a 3 y/o VW eGolf with 40k miles for $12k.
I don’t think that’s a sedan
True. 😕
E golf is a great daily driver. I don’t think it’s appreciated enough
I commute in one every day; great car!
People don’t buy sedans anymore. They prefer SUVs or crossovers. Many produce affordable EVs at a much higher quality than Tesla.
That being said, a BMW i4 in Europe isn’t much more expensive than a Model 3 LR. While somewhat less powerful, it’s a much better car reliability-wise. It’s also slightly more comfortable. There’s also the Hyundai Ioniq6.
I think people do still buy sedans but more in the premium category. Examples like Mercedes, BMW as you mentioned, Lucid, Tesla, Audi all have sedans, even the Camry is still a popular car.
But the general public have gone SUV for sure. However automakers have mixed views on SUVs when it comes to EV. They are easier to stuff batteries into but harder to get efficiency due to their shape. The better solution is a slippery sedan with flatter batteries, like the BYD Seal for example.
Good point. I think the sedans are more popular in the US than in Europe, though. Coupe SUVs are all the rage in Europe.
Dacia Spring
Because the same exact platform with a bigger box on top will sell for 5-10k more - higher profit margins for the automakers.
Tesla controls their own prices, no MSRP. Last year, a M3 RWD started at $54k. This year, it is much lower, as an example. Tesla also markets their car costs using incentives and savings. Add to that, the minimal interior is a study on cost savings. Something, something, something, best part is no part, lol.