- cross-posted to:
- cars@gearhead.town
- cross-posted to:
- cars@gearhead.town
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lol. Fat man yells at the kids on his lawn.
Comments from a Tesla worker there:
“Why is nobody listening to us who work at Tesla? You read that 130 car mechanics have gone on strike. The fact is that no one in Örebro has gone on strike at all.
“Are we afraid? Absolutely not for our employer. Are we afraid of IF Metall? Yes, we are afraid of the union. I have received threats of dismissal from A-kassa. They have written that I am a traitor who does not stand up for my colleagues, etc.
“I enjoy my job. In fact, Tesla is the best employer I have ever had. I used to work at another workshop that had a collective agreement, where we were much worse off, which is why I chose Tesla.
“I chose Tesla because I want to be part of and contribute to a greener transition. Tesla is the car company that is responsible for the largest part of the green transition in Sweden, and I’m proud of it.
“Why does IF Metall continue to threaten us all the time just because we democratically choose not to have a collective agreement? It is actually us service technicians (not car mechanics) who do not want a collective agreement.
“The union threatens not to clean our facilities. Are we then to work in dirt and misery? Is it IF Metall’s agenda to make sure we feel bad at work? If Metall and their LO chairman, who thinks it is better that we are unemployed than that we are better off without a collective agreement.
“Let us 137 service technicians vote on a collective agreement instead. Let democracy have its way. Is it the case that democracy does not exist in Sweden and in the trade unions anymore?”
“The union threatens not to clean our facilities. Are we then to work in dirt and misery? Is it IF Metall’s agenda to make sure we feel bad at work? If Metall and their LO chairman, who thinks it is better that we are unemployed than that we are better off without a collective agreement.
I mean they can clean themselves or have Tesla hire non-union workers to clean. I thought Tesla had great working conditions and doesn’t need unions. How come they can’t get their workshops cleaned?
Source
Your source is a Tesla fan blog. That’s not a source.
They are the top hits under google news. If you don’t think google news feed is wrong, take it up with Google. They seem to report Tesla news good or bad and include citations/ links to their Swedish news sources and opinion pieces. Seems neutral. But u r free to show better news source and l why it’s wrong. Don’t just say “ Fake News” like some Trump supporter.
Lol dude, I use Google news every day, and it provides absolutely shit sources on the regular. They run out of legit news sources, they’ll fill in space with nearly anything. Just random click farming blogs written by AI if they need to.
Google News doesn’t ensure legitimacy.
Yeah dude, this Reuters article came from Google news. Obviously this Reuters is just another “shitty” illegitimate, random fake-news click farming pro-Tesla blog too since it didn’t put out pro-union story. Thanks so for clearing that up 🙄🙄
So, it’s not the actual people ? Is the blog “Lying” and making up the content?
KoolAid is delicious.
Teslarati? Sounds neutral 🤡
Idk if one guy is a reliable source.
Pretty much all other Swedish sources says that the big majority have gone on strike.
Maybe the boy those in Örebro didn’t go on strike I guess. If it’s true.
This article doesn’t seem to understand that the reason for why the union is trying to get a CBA is because the employees specifically asked for one.
Why does IF Metall continue to threaten us all the time just because we democratically choose not to have a collective agreement? It is actually us service technicians (not car mechanics) who do not want a collective agreement.
amazing bit of twisted backwards logic - the only reason people would specifically not want a cba is if their employer threatens them with some repercussions, which is like the biggest reason to have a cba
Kinda want to know how do you sue a country but not willing to read the article
You can if you have more money then God.
I believe the colloquial phrase is “when you have enough money to make king Solomon blush”
Sue a part of the federal government (change federal for the proper term in whatever country). Roe vs Wade may be on of the most famous in America. Wade was the da in the county.
So Tesla is trying to be a strike breaker??
Not just trying, they’re literally strikebreaking, which is what prompted the sympathy actions. This would’ve remained limited to just the workshop workers if Tesla hadn’t committed the biggest taboo in the Swedish labour market.
I mean, I had to print a label on my car for months during Covid after getting a used car cause plates were so backed up. Maybe they can do that for now.
Americans rooting for Sweden in this fight don’t understand that Sweden already has tons of pro workers right and pension etc. This is swedish workers extorting Tesla because they’re swimming in money. I don’t see them protesting against Dacia…
Can you elaborate on that? What exactly do you think they are trying to extort and how can you compare that to Dacia?
I believe Dacia is part of the Stellantis group and as far as I know, they have an agreement with the union. Therefore, a strike against them would in fact be illegal.
Dacia is not part of the Stelantis group. They’re simply not rich enough to extort
Dacia is however part of the Renault group which does have a CBA in place.
No, we don’t. These workers’ rights aren’t enshrined in law. They are bargained for in collective agreements between the unions and the companies. Hence, when a company like Tesla comes in and refuses to sign a collective agreement, it is a problem not only to the Tesla workers, but to the industry as a whole, as it threatens the whole collective model that Swedish industry is based on. If that unravels, then the government might have to come in with a heavier hand and interfer.
Redditors reading his comments should understand where this user comes from. New account and lots of hot takes:
Ignore the downvotes, you’re correct and that’s because people don’t want EVs, they want Tesla’s.
okay
r/electric cars is anti Tesla btw. Ignoring the fact that Tesla sells more than all brands combined.
yeah
Anti Tesla brigade is here lol
You’re literally just proving me right lmao
Claiming that people don’t understand it while demonstrating your complete ignorance about the Swedish model. Rather ironic.
Americans on reddit hate themselves
Sweden already has tons of pro workers right and pension etc.
Very little of that is set in law. Most of that is set in agreements between companies and unions.
Something tesla is refusing to do.
I mean, the swedish workers have worse pay and beenfits than tve industry average. Piss off with those lies bud.
every other country in the world has worse pay than murica
Because everything is out of pocket over there…
For every $100 you earn on sweden you have to earn ~$170 in the US to have the same living standard.
So no wonder the standard of living is much worse in the US.
Source?
Would be interesting to see exactly what the claims are. As I understand it, the agency is in fact sending them the plates. It’s the postal workers that refuse to deliver them, which is protected by the Swedish constitution and thus labelled as force majeure.
The postal workers work for a state-owned company - therefore it’s the state-owned company that is refusing to deliver the plates. This idea that the workers don’t represent the company is nonsensical.
The company operates as a for profit company without government intervention, they just own it together with the Danish state.
And no it’s not nonsensical at all, what the fuck are you even implying? Are you also saying the striking Tesla workers are representing Tesla?
The fact that PostNord operates as a “for profit company” is irrelevant. It is a state-owned and state controlled company - there are only two owners, and one of them is the Swedish Government.
The Tesla lawsuit is completely legitimate - the state-owned company is refusing to deliver license plates. PostNord - as the company - is responsible for its employees failing to carry out their duties, and doing so in a discriminatory way.
“Are you also saying the striking Tesla workers are representing Tesla?” The correct analogy would be if Tesla employees selectively disabled the cars of people it didn’t like, say if PostNord or the US Postal Service had an all-Tesla mail fleet. Tesla would be held responsible for that - as they should be.
Pro-union/Anti-Tesla commenters have invented/made-up/imagined a distinction between the actions of employees and the responsibility of the company.
The Tesla lawsuit is completely legitimate - the state-owned company is refusing to deliver license plates. PostNord - as the company - is responsible for its employees failing to carry out their duties, and doing so in a discriminatory way.
You are just completely wrong and I think you are doing it on purpose. You know just as well as I do that the workers striking is not on the company. Sympathy strikes are completely legal as long as they only target the company they are striking against in Sweden. Tesla being the only company targeted is required for it to be legal. But somehow you are trying to turn that into an argument for why it is illegal. You are completely delusional or just paid by Tesla to spread misinformation. You can disagree all you want with how Sweden operates, that doesn’t change how the country works or how this situation will be solved.
Pro-union/Anti-Tesla commenters have invented/made-up/imagined a distinction between the actions of employees and the responsibility of the company.
Another delusional take which you don’t seem to understand would be needed to be applied at all situations. That includes the striking workers at Tesla. In your fantasy world those workers would represent Tesla as well. You can’t just spew shit and then selectively apply it in the situation where it favours your viewpoints.
“You know just as well as I do that the workers striking is not on the company.”
You keep reframing this to match your view. PostNord workers are not on strike. They are refusing to deliver mail to one recipient, but continuing to deliver mail to everyone else. That’s not a strike - there is a fundamental difference between a union striking against its employer and employees continuing to work normally except for one recipient of its services.
As an aside, its interesting how quickly you went to the ad-hominem attacks. I mean right away, in your first post. Why is that?
You are using the US legal framework to understand a Swedish situation
In much of Europe striking doesn’t limit to refusing to work, but can be refusing to do only certain tasks or refusing to do them only for a certain client
In Sweden it is legal for the workers of a company to strike in sympathy with other workers at another company with the caveat that they can’t strike completely but can refuse to do work that would benefit the company the original strike was against
It’s the postal workers that refuse to deliver them, which is protected by the Swedish constitution and thus labelled as force majeure.
If this were true, it’s pretty scary.
Regardless of anything to do with Tesla or any business, what if post office workers stopped delivering mail to Treta Grunberg because of an ethical issue.
Welcome to scandinavia. Strikes and unions are legal and they hold massive sway.
Would be interesting to see exactly what the claims are. As I understand it, the agency is in fact sending them the plates. It’s the postal workers that refuse to deliver them, which is protected by the Swedish constitution and thus labelled as force majeure.
They are sending them through a service that is knowingly refusing to deliver them. And the Transportation Agency refuses to simply let Tesla pick them up.
They are sending them through a service that is knowingly refusing to deliver them.
As opposed to using any other delivery service, where sympathy action could just as well happen. It’s not like the government deliberately picked a delivery company whose workers are hostile to Tesla.
It’s not like the government deliberately picked a delivery company whose workers are hostile to Tesla.
When they learned that the plates were not being delivered, they did not provide relief by letting Tesla pick up the plates at no cost to the Transportation Authority.
While it would have been easy for the agency to do so, making special arrangements for a company to help them circumvent a labor conflict can easily be interpreted as taking sides, so it is well understandable that the government agency threads carefully here. It can well be argued that doing nothing is the neutral action.
My understanding is that today’s interim decision came before the defendant (the agency) was officially served or had answered the suit, so we don’t know what their arguments are really.
They are sending them through a service that is knowingly refusing to deliver them.
Yes, and to a layman like me, this is probably Tesla’s only possible legal standing.
They will never have any success suing Postnord for their (employees’) actions during a work conflict. Not here in Scandinavia, where work conflicts are an accepted part of the game.
But perhaps the government or the plate manufacturer can be legally forced to try to work around the force majeure situation caused by this conflict, so the plates must be shipped through alternative channels. Perhaps.
But perhaps the government or the plate manufacturer can be legally forced to try to work around the force majeure situation caused by this conflict, so the plates must be shipped through alternative channels
I believe all Tesla is asking is to be able to pick up the plates themselves.
Yeah, but that would be in violation of the Swedish postal workers collective bargaining agreement and thus illegal under Swedish law. The “solution” Tesla wants to a legal strike is to do illegal actions. Sweden isn’t the states. Tesla can play ball or get the fuck out
As far as I know the swedish postal workers aren’t striking.
/r/iamverybadass
They have a right to try the court even if it gets thrown out. This is Sweden. Not some country without a judicial system.
Tesla is already getting the plates. This ain’t Toys R Us they’re dealing with.
The plates are manufactured by the Swedish Transport Agency. They are obliged to deliver the plates through PostNord according to rules set by the government agency Kammarkollegiet (The Swedish Legal, Financial and Administrative Services Agency). As all agencies in Sweden, they work independently from the government. Therefore Tesla will have to take Kammarkollegiet to the Administrative Court, and if this happens, it will probably be appealed all the way up to the Supreme Administrative Court.
This would probably take a couple of years.
And PostNord are notorious for loosing packages. They should be called BlackHoleNord because that is where objects go to disappear!
This would probably take a couple of years
It only took a few hours to get the first court instance to rule in Tesla’s favor:
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Mo0V85/tesla-far-ut-sina-registreringsskyltar
I fail to see why Transportstyrelsen would have any motivation to appeal the court’s decision. They have no stakes in this game.
This isn’t a verdict in the actual court case though, it’s only temporary.
This won’t necessarily mean that Tesla will get their plates. Because I assume IF Metall has a presence at the number plate factory.
Tesla can collect its license plates from the manufacturer Scandinavian Motorcenter. If the Swedish Transport Agency does not agree to it within seven days, a fine of one million kroner awaits, Norrköping district court decided on Monday afternoon.
- It is true that there has been a decision in which they approve Tesla’s lawsuit, says lawyer Johannes Ericson to Aftonbladet.
Via its Swedish law firm Setterwalls, Tesla submitted two lawsuits on Monday, against the Swedish Transport Agency and PostNord. In the lawsuit against the Swedish Transport Agency - which was submitted to the Norrköping district court - Tesla also demanded that, on an interim basis, i.e. temporarily, get the registration plates that the Swedish Transport Agency has forbidden the manufacturer Scandinavian Motorcenter to hand out directly to Tesla. Monday afternoon, the Norrköping District Court granted Tesla’s request:
- Yes, it is true that there has been a decision in which they approve Tesla’s lawsuit, says lawyer Johannes Ericson at Setterwall’s law firm.
What do they approve of?
- They approve the interim request. They say that the Swedish Transport Agency must give consent for Tesla to pick up the license plates from the manufacturer of license plates. At a fine of SEK 1 million?
- Exactly, that’s right. Within seven days. What do you think of the decision from the Norrköping District Court?
- I have no comments regarding the decision. Tesla will be responsible for any comments regarding the decision, says Ericson.
Perhaps people have property rights, that unions can’t block in a fair country.
Is Tesla allowed to pick up the license plates directly from their DMV equivalent?
How does that constitute “sending them”?
If I sold something on eBay but the guys at UPS won’t deliver it to you, it’s still on me to make sure it gets to you.
Not what the article said…
The state-run transport agency turned down Tesla’s request to pick up the license plates itself and also declined to send them via distribution channels other than PostNord.
Yes, but obviously the agency would stop being politically neutral about the strike if they’d treat Tesla different than other companies, in theory. They obviously don’t want to start to make exemptions to their administrative structures on the demands of a company.
Given that no other company (other than Toys’r’us) did what Tesla did there’s no previous case to compare it, to. So - this will go through the courts.
Although they decided to defend this by arguing the contract it has in place with the postal almost as if from business constraint as opposed to an administrative requirement.
State agencies have to seek the best offer for their contracts ever so often. They bulk deliver via one company that needs to win a bidding against other companies. Usually that means a company that signs a contract with a state agency trades some profits for the prime service contractor. The contract IS a business contract. But the state agency itself is bound by administrative requirements to get the best deal they can, whenever a previous time-based contract with a company has run out. Either side would be in breach of contract: PostNord if they’d stop delivering (they don’t - PostNord workers use their legally guaranteed right to strike); the agency if they’d suddenly breach the exclusive bulk postage contract they negotiated.
I don’t think US state agencies operate that differently on that end? The difference is that workers in Sweden have rights that US workers don’t.
A quote from the lawsuit (translated from Swedish):
This seizure of license plates constitutes a discriminatory attack without any support in law directed at Tesla.
Seizing would imply that the police or government is holding them back, right?
Yes and it doesn’t apply here. Seizure (“beslag” in Swedish) has a specific meaning in legal contexts, and it’s hardly used at all outside legal jargon.
See Chapter 27 of the Code of Judicial Procedure (Rättegångsbalken) regulating how an authority may use seizure. Link to English translation
I love seeing that these stranger redditors know more than musk’s lawyers lol
It means the same in dutch! I didnt know you swedes said the same. But it also means batter, as in pannenkoekenbeslag = pancakebatter
Oliebollenbeslag would be a fitting substitute this time of year.
So a government agency would have to issue an order of seizing specific items or property, which they probably have not done.
Yes,
at worst they’re using work to rule to screw over Tesla. More realistically they don’t want to be part of that conflict whatever individuals at the agency may feel about this whole thing.
There is such a thing as de-facto doing things though. It’d be more useful to look at precedent with similar cases than just a cold read of the words. It can very easily play out differently than you think.
Sweden isn’t common law so precedents are largely irrelevant. The law is applied as written on a case by case basis.
Imagine thinking we run on common law in Sweden.
You sure about that? Because it sure seems like the courts don’t agree with you: https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/27/sweden-sides-with-tesla-says-transport-agency-must-deliver-plates-or-pay-up/
No, but it also doesn’t imply that there’s a legal protection here.
I mean the agency likely has a duty to ensure they’re received in a timely fashion though. The agency would likely have to step in to provide an alternative.
which is protected by the Swedish constitution and thus labelled as horse manure.
WHAT
How deep is Tesla going to dig their own grave? Imaging creating this mess just because you don’t want to provide a good work environment for 130 workers in a market where you sell over 10000 cars a year.
It’s even worse, this thing get picked up by press and unions in all over the EU and literally puts Tesla on target for these groups. Tesla has been under the radar for years with their none unionized workforce in the EU, now these stuff gets brought up just because of 130 Tesla workers in sweden.Um an awful lot of us in Europe really don’t like unions. In France they are a PITA. A lot of workers are cheering on Tesla here. Sweden is one of those rare countries where the government will collude with unions to destroy a private company. Many other EU countries there is more of an acrimonious relationship between government and unions.
Phillip.
Awful is a great word, every worker in Europe is standing on the shoulders of Unions and their members that fought for their rights, you included.
Who says they don’t have a good work environment? I’ve seen no proof in either direction.
The Tesla workers weren’t the ones who called the strike. It was the union itself who randomly demanded a bargaining agreement when there seemed to be nothing wrong or missing from their workers’ employment.
They have consistently elevated counts of workplace accidents, by as much as a factor of ten compared to other automotive manufacturers. Theres also a pretty high number of environmental incidents which may also be hazardous to longterm health of employees. Its not just about getting a decent wage.
This has nothing to do with their German factory. This is about workers in Sweden.
And where’s your source that they have ten times as many accidents and have many environmental accidents detrimental to the workers’ health?
https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/tesla-gruenheide-arbeitsunfaelle-umwelt-100.html
Ill admit I misremembered - its just 3x as many incidents. Still not good, especially as these are only the ones they had to report, where people died or were unable to work for more than three days. And while these numbers are for the german factory, the environment is the same. Same company, same lack of unionisation, same structure. So if the numbers are different, its not cause Tesla is a better place to work at in Sweden.
The latter part of your question is weird though - I said theres more environmental incidents, which may have an effect on worker health. That was conjecture on my part and a reason why more protection (ie via unionisation) is important. If theres a leak in a tank full of paint, its an environmental hazard and a health hazard, even if workers arent immediately unable to work. Fumes arent great for lungs, liver, kidneys… And thats just one example of what could go wrong…
This has nothing to do with their German factory
Who says they don’t have a good work environment?
Tesla does, by claiming their workers have better conditions than the union mandated minimums, while refusing to join the union agreements.
That logic makes zero sense.
If they have good work environments and pay better than competitors with CBAs already, why not simply formalize it in a CBA? An agreement is just a baseline. It doesn’t set a top, only a bottom, and if you’re already above the bottom then it won’t affect you as a company in the least.
Tesla and trashing their public image because their boss hits the ketamine too hard is kind of like peanut butter and jelly.
This is a guy who is upset that he’s losing business for endorsing antisemitic conspiracy theories.
This is a guy who thinks it’s illegal for companies to refuse to give him money for his views and the toxicity on his platform.
He is really that dumb.
Not really. Musk said that Jewish communities have endorsed anti-white racism, which is precisely true. Groups like the Anti-Defamation League have accepted trendy “antiracism” ideology, which explicitly endorses (and indeed requires) anti-white racism. Then they try to re-define the word “racism” to exclude racism against whites. But go ahead and parrot the “Musk is antisemitic” narrative if you want.
Imagine being dumb to equate anti racism with anti white 🤦♂️
The Apartheid Defense League is a bunch of white people who use Judaism and the martyrdom of Holocaust victims to mask their bigotry against Arabs and non-white Jews.
Tesla and trashing their public image
Maybe for some.
I like seeing a company stand up to bullying by unions. It improves their image in my view. This subreddit, being wildly in the tank for unions, obviously will disagree and downvote this point of view.
The stakes are not as low as 130 Swedish mechanics. The stakes are getting any collective bargaining through in Europe at all which would cause a cascade of similar actions. It is containment of organized labour demands internationally. Failure here would be catastrophic for Musk’s managerial style which seems to be “fly by night / make it work or else” kinda horseshit. The exact thing collective bargaining protects against.
Union critics love to make this a question purely about wage but I’m willing to bet it has way more to do with working conditions and curbing erratic management.
How deep is Tesla going to dig their own grave?
How exactly are they digging their own grave? The judge saw enough merit in their argument to approve an interim order in their favour regarding the suit.
I said it here before, Tesla is completly destroying their public image in europe.
Reddit ≠ the real world.
Tesla is the best selling EV in the whole of Europe right now (alongside North America), and Sweden (as a stand alone country). It has two spots in the Top 5 alone, and sold more cars to Europe than ever this year. In other words, the demand for Tesla cars in Europe has never been higher.
Just because Reddit has a narrative, does not mean reality/facts agree with it.
That’s an ICE car. Significantly more ICE cars combust than EV’s, by a MASSIVE margin actually, it’s scary they let ICE car’s on the road the amount of them combust.
Would be funny if the courts said that they aren’t taking any tesla cases
Sweden: ‘suck these nuts. From the back’
If no one budges Tesla will end up suing the Swedish government in ICSID for more money thrn they will ever make selling cars.
Sweden would have to consent to ICSID arbitration for it to be binding and they wouldn’t unless they were certain they would win or there was some need for them to make use of a World Bank credit facility.
Looks like the Swedish courts overturned the collusion between the government and the unions: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-sues-sweden-over-blocked-license-plates-business-daily-di-reports-2023-11-27/
The courts have ordered the Swedish governments to hand over the license plates to Tesla.
Phillip.
Haha
