Me too Bernie, me too.
The end of the day I won’t blame the young people, though. I will blame the red hat fascists who want to install an orange dictator.
Edit: Young people get a pass because at least they are passionate about something. I’m over here, dead inside, praying to a computer that things don’t get any worse then they already are.
I blame First Past The Post voting, for keeping the people handcuffed to two legacy political parties.
Perhaps Republicans would vote less clowns into office, but they are chained to the Republican party.
Same is true for the Democrats. We don’t need to be stuck with these two parties. There can be something else.
Right. I wish people were upset about not having ranked choice as they were the genocide in Gaza. If we changed the way we voted voting for the lesser evil wouldn’t be a thing.
I blame my dumb ass for voting for Nader in 2000. Don’t be like me. Learn from the mistakes of others!
The people who are to blame are the Republicans. That is where you need to direct your anger.
I’m not angry. I regret voting third-party in an election that barely elected Bush, a year before 9/11, that he used to justify a two front war resulting in nearly one million deaths. I’m encouraging others to learn from my mistake.
Sure but we keep losing sight of what is truly pushing us over the edge
Wanting a three party system but the government won’t comply?
I was going with a single party trying to install an autocrat.
Biden should step down as the nominee and ask Bernie to run.
Bernie has my vote! Biden never will.
If you like Bernie so much maybe listen to him?
“We can be extremely upset at the Biden administration for their policies with regard to Israel and Gaza, but the difficulty is that in the real world that you live in, you’ve got to take a look at a whole lot of things,” he said, sitting in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee hearing room on Capitol Hill. “On the other hand, I would hope that most of the young people and protestors do not want to see Donald Trump, who is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe who doesn’t acknowledge the reality of climate change, become elected president of the United States.”
Also trump is aligned with Netanyahu and is friends with him. Do they think trump being elected will have Israel have peace with Gaza because it would definitely be the opposite. This is playing out like the Carter/Regan election with the Iran Hostage Crisis in a losing effort for Biden if they don’t figure it out.
Yeah, Bernie always carries water for the DNC, and it’s always to the detriment of progressive American politics.
…got to take a look at a lot of things
Record oil and gas drilling, multi-time failure to codify Roe, redlining, gave away the public option, Manchin’s removed, Bibi’s removed, tricked Warren to betray Bernie for nothing, fascist crackdown on peacefully protesting college kids, ancient dinosaur who’s out of touch. I could go on.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them. The establishment Dems would have you be angry with me and those like me, but this is a misdirection and also just another of Biden’s failings - no ability to take responsibility for his own reprehensible actions.
Americans like you are the absolute worst. So damn irresponsible. All that undeserved extra voting power you have, and you choose to squander it and use it for an act of shameful self-righteousness, with no regard for the consequences of your actions. You clearly have zero respect for progressive politics, progressive movements, and even progressive leaders.
Ignorant liberal voters: as useful for destroying democracy as ignorant fascists
I’m always teleported back to grade school and the token, “rough home life” kid. They sit there and back talk the teacher all day long applying their contrarian logic to everything little thing. Hell, on some level I’d even agree with them but not because they’re right in what they are doing but they accidentally make a salient point. The end of the day, though, the teacher was attempting to do good for this kid and we all just watch as they throw it back in their face.
This may be a hot take but as someone in my 40s I don’t think anybody in their 80s has a fucking clue what’s good for me.
Keep voting for 99% Hitler instead of 100% gets us to the same place
Biden is not fuckin Hitler, you enlightened genius!
Keep voting for
Ralph NaderGary Johnson… err I mean Jill Stein instead of doing something useful.Seriously, what’s the worse that could happen? It’s not like
Bush will get us into a massive war and end any hope at fighting climate changeerr I mean, it’s not likeTrump will enflame the ongoing war in the Middle East and decimate any chance the Supreme Court will side with minorities for an entire generationno wait, I mean, surely Trump won’t imprison his political enemies and dismantle the electoral process.Ignore what I crossed out; it’s just American history. You probably wouldn’t be interested
Game theory is a tough subject, but it would be worth it for you to study to understand how you are acting against your less preferred candidate and helping what should be your least preferred candidate (assuming your ranked choice has the republican nominee below the democratic nominee).
Keep voting for 99% … gets us to the same place
You make it seem as though your protest vote does not also get us to the same place? Many voters have shared your mentality and voted accordingly for the past 200+ years and it’s not made a difference, what makes you think this time things will change?
Biden isn’t 99% Hitler though
The only stickler really is the Israeli support, which he is trying to stop. He isn’t even actively pursuing it.
So it is 20% Hitler at best, and dropping.
How is failure to codify Roe on your list and you don’t give a shit if we have more fundamentalist judges or not?
How is oil and gas drilling on your list and you don’t give a shit if the executive branch is actively dismantling the EPA or not?
I also hate Manchin, you think a progressive Dem is going to be elected in WV? It’s either him or a Repub.
I’m not mad at you, specifically, but it is enraging to see dimwits throw their ballots in the trash. Good luck to all of us. Your preferred system is not going to rise from the ashes.
Resize the court is obviously the only solution to this broken situation primed to let the criminal, traitor Trump walk free.
EPA doesn’t mean shit when energy companies are lobbying both sides. Is this supposed to be a determining factor? Look no further than mayor Pete’s handling of East Palestine, OH for your answer.
Richard Ojeda actually had a good chance in WV until the DNC poured millions into attack ads to keep their establishment dog in power. Said dog went on to ram through yet another disastrous pipeline thanks to Biden , lining both their pockets with oil and gas money, before riding off into the sunset.
Luck has nothing to do with it with a system so brutally rigged against the populace. Neither of these “sides” is ever going to do anything beyond exploiting us. I’ll use what little power remains in my vote to try for an alternative. If more people believed something better was possible, perhaps we could yet achieve it.
Can you just save it for a different election? I’m all about 3rd party politics making inroads. But, Jill Stein is NOT going to be elected this time around. Sorry to break it to you. And if Trump gets elected, guess what: we might not have free and fair elections to vote for 3rd parties at all! What’s the plan then?
Nah, you’re using what little power remains in your vote to line a trashcan. And you don’t care about the consequences because you are privileged enough that you won’t be directly targeted by Repubs.
But the important thing is you’ll have owned the “Bothsides Uniparty” by… helping Donald get elected? Yeah, the massive tax cuts will really sting their butts. Good thinking.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them.
me when I decide to waste my vote as a swing state voter, instead of meaningfully pulling my support for a candidate that’s ultimately going to get elected anyways out of protest as a non-swing state voter:
waste my vote
Voter suppression tactics
good acknowledgement of the point I was making there, very cool
Could you provide sources? I’m just curious to keep a log
Burn it all down woohoo /s
They don’t understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.
That’s the great part about our democracy: You don’t get to vote for someone who isn’t pro-Israel. Because freedom.
*electoral system
Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn’t break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.
If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we’d had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)
And if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped.
We have FPTP, and we’ll have it until I’m cold and dead in the ground.
even republican-ass alaska passed RCV.
alaska also has some kind of UBI because of their oil stuff, I’m not sure they slot as easily into political partisanship as most other states
Burlington VT also switched off FPTP… and then we fucking back slid because “it’s too confusing!”
I think it’s highly unlikely we get off FPTP at a national level.
And it failed in blue as fuck Massachusetts
Yay, Alaska and Maine did it. Very good. Wake me when it’s a state that has more people than moose.
Electoral system…
Just as I have to watch half the electorate embrace the most asinine BS possible to justify selfishness and hate… it’s not that far out to see people screaming “genocide joe!” at everyone they see, as they turn off everyone and defeat themselves at every chance.
The cool part is focusing all your effort into a camp-out such that your main message is synonymous with homelessness and you self defeat your own goals… all while you call the liberal element genocidal and basically show the world your biggest effort is to sit still while cutting off the liberal nose to spite your face.
Purely hypothetical question for you: If you had a choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election which would you choose?
Well shit, if you had a purely hypothetical choice, what would you choose?
I’m voting 3rd party so according to liberal and moderate logic that probably means I’m supporting Israel.
The important part is that the equation means more than you.
Vote how you mean, and ignore how your vote’s mean.
Good for you.
So what’s your choice? Supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election?
Ok purely hypothetical right back for you…
Do your ideals exist outside of pure hypotheticals? Can you cite them?
If you had a real choice… say in the upcoming election…
Who would you choose?
Can you imagine how dumb it would be to vote for someone who isn’t though?
The only reason I think Trump isn’t pro-Palestine (Russian ally through Iran) is because the war is a good distraction from Ukraine
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Being pro-Israel and being pro-Palestine are mutually exclusive positions since Israel is genociding Palestine.
That’s like saying you can be pro Nazi and pro jew.
I mostly agree in fact, however in definition it isn’t true. Israel is a nation that could exist in many other forms. It doesn’t have to do what it’s doing. It’s not the same as “pro-Nazi” because Nazism is an ideology, not a nation. A nation doesn’t have any set ideals, only a set of people and borders it represents.
You can be anti-Nazi and pro-Germany because Nazis didn’t define Germany. They were Nazis at one point in time but are now represented by totally different ideals.
Agreed
Socially Jew, economically Nazi?
No it would be like Finland allying with Germany because they had to be against Russia
But I didn’t say pro-Palestine, I said pro-Palestinian which you clearly know the difference since you had to change it to make your point
You just proved my point. The Finland/Germany/Russia comparison only fits with ‘Palestine’.
The Nazi/Jews comparison is accurate with ‘Palestinian’.
Would it be easier if I said “Finnish” instead of Finland?
If the US backs Palestine do you honestly believe they will turn against all their allies to aid American security of the region and be Israel 2.0?
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
The state of Israel is currently genociding Palestinians. You can’t support the state of Israel and support the Palestinian people at the same time. Full stop.
Yeah Donald “Muslim ban” and “finish the job” Trump is not pro-Palestine only for reasons of distraction.
Donald “carpet bomb the middle east” trump
Might possibly be pandering to his base
Palestine (Russian ally through Iran)
Russia isn’t in military allience with Iran. Both Russia and Iran are neighbors sanctioned by the US, forcing them into a business partnership by exclusion.
And Iran isn’t allied with Gaza Palestinians. You’re confusing them with the Yemeni Houthis and West Bank Hezbollah. What you have is Israelis engaging in terrorist acts against both states, then conflating retaliation with cooperation.
https://apnews.com/general-news-08f1ea9e849a49c5a741bf0e1582b616
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization, they are participating in war crimes
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
An early example of Israeli state-sponsored was the 1954 Lavon Affair, a botched bomb plot in Egypt that led to the resignation of the Israeli defense minister at the time. In the 1970s and 1980s, Israel was also a major supplier of arms to dictatorial regimes in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. In the 21st-century, it has been accused of sponsoring and supporting several terrorist groups as part of its proxy conflict with Iran.
Israel is a state
Response:you’re right but here’s a list of organizations that are
Congratulations, just seems like wasted effort
You’re right that a state can commit terrorism just like a group can, but the key issue here is whether the state works towards being held accountable and towards achieving a long term benefit for all its benefactors, investors, assets and the society it’s providing for
https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/the-systematic-torture-of-palestinians-in-israeli-detention/
The recent case of Samer Arbeed highlighted once again the systematic use of torture against Palestinian detainees in Israeli prisons. Israeli soldiers arrested Arbeed at his home in Ramallah on September 25, 2019. They beat him severely before taking him to Al Moscobiyye detention center in Jerusalem for interrogation. Two days later, according to his lawyer, he was hospitalized as a result of severe torture, and lay in critical condition for several weeks. A judicial body had authorized the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Bet, to use “exceptional methods” to extract information in this case without going through the courts. This led Amnesty International to condemn what happened to Arbeed as “legally-sanctioned torture.“
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Like I said: Freedom. 🇺🇸🦅🍔
Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn’t even a presidential issue.
Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he’s eating the lions share of the public ire.
“You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you’re outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden” just isn’t a winning message among progressive voters this year.
Maybe try it again in 2026.
Yeah even to expand on that - they don’t understand that everything they don’t like about Biden, they’ll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.
It seems that many of them know that Trump is worse, but think that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action. Republicans count on people like that to win. Fascists don’t give a fuck how they get into power, as long as they do.
They don’t just count on it. They actively invade spaces and spread that idea. I’m almost certain the first people saying that about Biden/Israel were right wing trolls, and people on the left actually took the bait and started spreading it themselves.
Republicans count on people like that to win.
Republicans have lost more than one Senate seat because they ran zealous nutbag losers in safe elections and pissed off moderates.
I’m not sure why Democrats get to run pro-war Zionists and Blue Lives fascists, free from the fear that they’ll suffer the same fate.
Yeah but the problem is we live in at least a pro-fascist state if not a fascist state already. So convincing people who realize this to vote for the guy who has been voting for fascist policies for decades (as well as some progressive ones, for those who will say I’m ignoring the “good” he’s done) and is actively supporting genocide not just in policy but in his statements and apparently beliefs is going to be pretty tough. It’s not just about voting “not Trump” anymore, people also want to vote “not Biden”.
They know Donald will destabilize the country and accelerate a collapse. They think that will make room for China to expand.
that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action.
Taking the “moral high” ground even though it would have a bad result. Sounds like what the DEMs do all the time.
“I learned it from you” -young people probably.
Or they understand that all this apolgetics for the Dems being the lesser of two evils just results in them being the same evil, just four years later. The Dems are still running internment camps at the border. They are still building Trumps wall.
By never threatening them with actual consequences to their power, you give them a blanket check to fuck everyone over for their rich donors. And that is exactly what they did and continue to do.
The GOP openly courts antisemites while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.
And once again, as the foreign trolls that are busy courting our youth want, not one comment in this entire thread mentions that Europe is on the brink of open modernized war should Ukraine fall to vlad “Ukraine is just a stepping stone” putin.
Gaza is a genocide, but that is not the critical geopolitical stage to be paying the most attention to. Once again it is completely ignored that the heads of hamas who attacked israel on oct 7 knowing exactly what they were about to cause are friends of putin.
The Gaza genocide was provoked precisely to pull western eyes from the Ukrainian front where russia was more than underperforming to ensure their victory in a sustained war of attrition.
You want to avoid a world war? You vote for biden whether u do it proudly or do it holding ur nose the way most of the sane will.
He absolutely is more so. Also, young people have more power to influence Biden because they are part of his coalition. Of course, using this power is tricky because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose. So far I support the pressure campaign but I hope as the election gets closer people will start to realize what an epic disaster Trump term two would be.
He said he would level Palestine.
Not sure what these youngins are reading but he isn’t coy about it.
Biden said this? When?
I think they were referencing Trump as that’s who was being discussed in the last sentence.
Oh that makes sense.
Are young people really a part of Bidens coalition? Bidens policies and rhetoric have consistantly pushed young people away. The ridiculous speech he gave just a few minutes ago maligning student protestors is emblematic of this.
And it seems like young people have got the message. The last poll I saw had 18-24yr olds voting for Trump at +8%
Historically they have been. I think Biden seems out of touch but I’m not sure I agree with this sentiment overall. That poll sounds dubious but I mean coalitions can change certainly. Trump seems even further from the views I see most young people espousing so I’m not sure why they would move to him but maybe it’s protest vote kind of situation.
Young people are part of the coalition but they’ve never proven to be a reliable part. When the 18-25s vote like the older generations then campaigns will start to take their needs more seriously.
Exactly. When I was 18-25 bernie learned this. We didn’t like Hillary so we got trump.
It’s a two way street. Young progressives don’t see any reason to vote for Democrats who won’t fight for any of the policies they care about, so they wont defend or fight for those officials.
If i am thirsty and someone is offering me toilet water after they just shit in the toilet, I don’t need to show gratitude to the next person who comes by offering water from their toilet after they pissed in it.
Your analogy is completely absurd though, it’s more like voting for cake and getting bread - and then being so pissed off about the bread that you let bread guy get voted out in favor of toilet guy.
Hold it!
Let me make sure I’ve got that right. In this analogy, a candidate supporting genocide is a perfectly fine option, and people who have a problem with him are comparable to picky eaters?
This is what I’ve been saying: Don’t vote and expect cake. Vote and expect bread at best. Lower your expectations and treat it like paying your taxes and you’ll feel better about it.
Young voters delivered GA in 2020, and what did Dems do with that majority?
Biden immediately dropped all pretense of doing immigration reform because an unelected senate parliamentarian said no, offered no meaningful student debt relief, didn’t legalize cannabis, and is drilling for oil at record rates - more so than Trump did. Dems had yet another chance to codify Roe, and blew it. Biden even left in Louis DeJoy as postmaster general. Now he’s mischaracterizing peaceful student protesters as violent radicals, while actual thugs in riot gear and stars of david are free to descend upon them and beat them into submission.
Don’t blame young people for having eyes and ears and paying attention - Biden had his chance, and blew it in favor of his donors’ interests. It’s a tale as old as time, and if you have any interest in actually galvanizing youthful voters, you’ve got to offer something better than the outmoded views of geriatric, genocidin’ Biden.
Downvote me if you want but it’s still a fact that older voters vote more reliably and therefore get better representation. I don’t know that GA was that large of a deviation but even if it was, in general the younger vote still can’t be counted on.
Either way, your comment is case in point (if not also a bit misinformed) - if the youth vote is going to abandon the Dems after one election you can kind of see why they might consider spending more time and money going after a more reliable bloc.
I love your framing here, “youth vote is going to abandon the Dems.” lol!
The youth vote delivered a majority for the Dems, which was squandered yet again, because democrats don’t actually want to lead. Dems clearly are a fundraising organization, not a political organization.
Shouldn’t the DNC have to do something to earn people’s votes? Instead they spit in our faces as they continue to serve the corporate donors.
So fine, let them continue to court boomers. Because that will obviously work forever.
Correction - you were the one that implied the young people were going to abandon the dems: “Biden had his chance, and blew it”
as somebody with a cumulative $130k in student loan debt, whose loans just went into repayment last year, don’t fucking speak for me on whether i think Biden is trying to do something about it. needless to say i’m following that topic, and i see the efforts Biden/the current admin is making, and i see it repeatedly thwarted by right-wing politicians at fed and state levels.
every time i read a statement like yours, i get the feeling it’s coming from someone who isn’t in repayment yet.
edit - or a right-wing troll
I hear you on student debt forgiveness, Biden has done $144B, which is a little under a tenth of the total. I give that to him as part of the 10% of his campaign promises he has actually delivered on, but it’s not nearly enough. And holy hell did he screw up delivering on that - telling all those borrowers they were getting relief, only to snatch it away from them some months later in a most confusing and disorganized way. Truly inept.
Why not forgive all the student debt? The cost of higher learning in this country is absurd. Especially when you consider that many of these universities are land grant institutions. The commodification of education was a huge mistake (thanks W Bush for eliminating the tuition cap and opening the floodgates). Biden himself authored the legislation which prevents students from declaring bankruptcy when they inevitably get crushed from the massive amount of debt brought on by pursuing degrees. This is how they tag team us, to cement corporate hegemony. Here is a perfect example where Biden has a chance to make things right, but of course he wants nothing of it.
Instead, Biden sends billions overseas to massacre brown children. All the while preventing the UN from doing anything about it to keep civilians safe.
Instead, Biden locks in over half of Trump’s $2T tax cuts for the rich and corporations. Recapturing those alone could have paid for all the student debt. Literally all of it.
So yes, you’re correct that repugnantcons play their part to ensure corporate domination of our lives. But realize the Dems are also fiscal conservatives, and also extremely pro corporate, and they are complicit in this great robbery as well.
yes, even though i didn’t get my $20k forgiveness, i’m sure current admin would be SUPER SUCCESSFUL in pushing through forgiveness of all student loan debt. no pushback from the right at all. /s
yes, even though the right is attempting to dismantle education at all levels, i’m sure the left could absolutely succeed in making quality higher ed free for everyone in a single term, no problem. /s
seriously though, i don’t think it’s worthwhile to pin our hopes on any administration achieving hugely improved outcomes on any complex issue in one or two terms. on a societal level, i think things decay and fall apart more easily than utopia is realized. i’m hoping for slow progress. i’m not holding my breath or shooting myself in the foot voting third party right now and expecting a miracle.
final thought as i write this - has utopia ever been realized on any significant scale? only for some, and only for a time.
“because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose”
“We need to be toothless about our criticism of Biden” FTFY
The threat of making your candidate lose is the only power you have to shift them.
Next time you’re negotiating for a car, see how much the seller budges after you preceed negotiations with “Now, I am fully committed and happy paying sticker price, but how much can you lower the price?”
Edit: at least have the intellectual honesty to say out loud that Biden could do anything, and you’d still vote for him
The threat of making your candidate lose is the only power you have to shift them.
I mean this is also not really a threat, though. I think realistically biden and trump are both closer to each other than either of them are to this like, eclectic amalgamation of positions that is the “youth vote”. Him not winning isn’t like, still a victory, in that circumstance, but it’s not like, a loss to them in the same way that it would be if they actually had to do all the stuff the “youth vote” wanted. Basically I’m just saying that they, the DNC broadly I suppose, would rather give as little as they absolutely can, while still maintaining a delicate balance of power where they’re the only ones that can maintain the status quo rather than a backslide into total fascism. Going with all the “youth vote” positions, to them, would be as big if not a bigger loss than a slide into total fascism.
Which is to say, I think they’re willing to lose as long as it means they don’t have to really do anything major.
Which is to say, I think they’re willing to lose as long as it means they don’t have to really do anything major.
100% agree. This is something liberal and moderate voters are completely blind to.
I’m fully committed to lesser evil voting since it’s the only viable electoral strategy. So as long as Biden is better than Trump I would vote for him. I have a hard time understanding why people don’t see that this is the most rational way to vote. If you don’t like it, and I don’t either, then you need to pursue strategies to change it, particularly outside the electoral system. Since these strategies do not conflict with voting I think it’s rational to pursue both actions.
And no I don’t think we need to be toothless. But a lot of people don’t seem to be smart enough to walk the line of threatening to withhold support without actually doing so. I’m not going to go right up to Biden and tell him that’s what I’m doing. He doesn’t know what my strategy is, so it can still be effective.
I mean so lesser evil voting is generally a good strategy for damage control, but it’s not necessarily a great strategy in terms of like, blanket things you can just effect to the whole. If you take a voter in a non-swing state, say, california, a state that votes very consistently, them defecting their vote to a third party which represents them more accurately, is going to be of much lesser weight in totality than if someone in a swing state had done so. They are probably much safer in their estimation of walking up towards the line without crossing it. This is probably also true of states who get their votes tallied up later on, and also of states where projections are already in favor of certain candidates, since those projections affect elections.
This also kind of discounts “not voting” as an electoral strategy because that doesn’t send a super clear signal, but it’s probably not the worst thing in the world, since we could kind of file them away under like, either the average non-voter’s position in their state, or just the average non-voter’s position at large, which is probably going to be more radical of an average position than most would think.
But yeah, all of this still tracks with what you’re saying so far. I think the biggest determining factor for me, though, is that electoralism as a strategy at all hinges on the assumption that democrats would rather move left than lose to republicans. And I dunno, that’s kind of a tenuous assumption, and I think is the major disagreement on people who are willing to engage in electoralism vs those who aren’t, is that most people who aren’t, assume that the democrats would rather lose to republicans and ensure a status quo/backslide into fascism rather than move to the left.
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I fucking hate, and from the bottom of my heart, how Biden is funding the genocide in Palestine, but I’m still going to vote for him this time, because we just can’t have a person like Trump in the white house, period. I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time. I’d never let my 10 year old lead a country, yet we let Trump do it for four fucking years. I, too, am sick of this “the lesser of two evils” bullshit, but this time I’m giving it a pass because of Trump. We already have a crumbling country and can’t afford another four years of this dude.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
He has all but said he would cut Israel loose to do whatever they needed to finish the job.
The use of Israeli aggression is not a point of comparison when viewing the differences between trump and Biden.
Edit: and I apologize for the late edit - FWIW Biden has become critical of Israeli actions and offered some aid to Palestinians (Yeah, I absolutely agree it isn’t enough) while trump would prefer to wash his hands of the whole Palestine thing. That is a notable difference.
No one denies that trump will fund it. That’s not the point, but I get what you mean.
It isn’t the potential for denial that initiated my reply, it’s the fact that people declare US support of Israel is a strike against Biden when comparing Biden to trump as a reason to consider not voting for Biden. This is a false comparison and it is the point I am making.
No one denies that trump will fund it
And? The problem is that these people won’t really address the fact that Trump would be worse than Biden
I’ve argued with multiple people on here who said Trump would be better for Palestinians than Biden is.
Lmfao. Nah, that’s too much credit. Way too much.
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simply cannot actively support a genocidal party because it runs fundementally against their core values.
So by not voting they default to the fascist one. Good for them, at least they (didn’t) vote for the least worst option.
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Ok. GFY for making the “if you vote for Biden you vote for genocide” argument while completely ignoring trump would do the same. You’re just a damn shill for the right wing. Useless MF.
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Unreal. Willing to try to convince others to not vote so we get fascism on top of genocide. What a transparent tool.
Seriously. Don’t vote for Biden so this other fascist wins and Palestine sill gets screwed!
Transparent AF.
If voting for Biden is voting for genocide, then not voting or voting third party is voting for Trump, genocide and the destruction of democracy in the US.
The destruction of democracy in the United States has much deeper roots, and has been in-process for a long time. How long the effects have been visible is arguable, and the manifestation unpredictable, but fundamentally, a voting system which doesn’t allow people to express their actual preferences, well, isn’t representative of people’s actual preferences.
I can’t think of any more-profound way to state that truth at this early hour. A “democracy” which doesn’t reflect the will of the people is a democracy in name only, and we can only keep the “lesser-evil” streak going for so long before we’re so far into evil that we “have to” vote for a candidate materially supporting genocide so we don’t get the candidate who supports genocide without having non-actionable “concerns” about it.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
And hence why I won’t vote for Trump either. It’s not that hard to understand.
I think Joe Biden is maybe the best president of my lifetime, and I’m going to vote for him with my head held high even though I live in a red state where it doesn’t matter at all. I wish things were simpler in the Levant, but I appreciate that Joe Biden is between a rock and a hard place with Israel. It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing. That said, even if I laid the entire genocide at Biden’s feet (which, while he’s not blameless, is absolutely not appropriate), he would still be head and shoulders an improvement over Donald Trump.
For that matter, I’d absolutely let my 12 year old run this country before I’d let Trump have a second term. My kid is brilliant, and more importantly, unlike Trump he listens to advice, can take no for an answer, and gives a shit about having a functional democracy four years from now.
A second Trump term is an existential threat to the nation. Hold your nose, hold your neighbor’s nose if you have to, but every able-bodied patriot owes it to their descendants and their patriotic ancestors to prevent a second Trump term.
Biden went around congress to ship weapons to Israel. Painting him as helpless here is pure misinformation.
It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing.
Well, he is the President of the United States. We may have to pretend Bibi is a socialist though.
Old america vs Israeli desert trooper guy? That’s going to be an interesting one
Put a Columbia University T-shirt on him!
Your ten-year-old is more mature than Trump.
Not a joke.
Knowing my son? He absolutely is way more mature than Trump.
Ten year old?! Thats a high bar for most republicans these days. They want knee jerk and whining. Thats something most 10 year olds are already figuring out doesnt get them what they want.
That’s basically my point. That, and how Trump brags that he hasn’t matured past the age of six.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
Electoral College, should not exist.
Certain important people need to keep selling spyware, drugs, guns and war to keep themselves and their associates employed. As for whether the funds or the actual work (conflict) available is sustainable is for everyone including the accountants to consider.
The other problem is that war doesn’t really die, we just displace where we choose to fight, and how, if we imagine physical and cyber world peace for a moment, for the USA or China to reduce its military capacity by one third, or one tenth, we would see absolute chaos, thousands unemployed, the losses in maintenance and equipment, military supplies, medical, etc, nobody would win.
Any complex society where financial and other systems operate needs a minimum degree of social enforcement to maintain. Whether that can change like a function or is something that depends on a country’s GDP is another issue.
Just consider that humanity would either need lots of free time, energy and money or it would literally need to feel incredibly threatened by something on earth, which we all could not fight to control in order to actually fund going to space or even the moon, and I doubt a triple whammy of pandemic, food shortage or severe draught and floods could do it, it happened in the Bible and people literally just found more dumb reasons to do more dumb things, and no lowering mens testosterone or telling guys to shave more often wouldn’t do shit either. If people don’t find reasons to explore or learn, they find reasons to fight/play fight, it’s pretty normal, and if anyone remembers their childhood, usually it’s pretty much the same across generations.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
I’d point out that the first step in changing somebody’s mind on a topic is always to figure out why they believe and behave as they do.
Biden is not funding Israel. The United States government is. Even if he wanted to stop the aid (he doesn’t), he doesn’t have the power to just ignore laws passed by Congress. Trump did that with Ukraine and got impeached for it.
I mean, he fundamentally does have the power to veto laws. There are potentially negative political consequences in doing so, but he certainly has that power.
Vetoing a bill with well over 2/3 support is pointless because it will just be overridden.
“I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time”
Easy. He was propped up by democrats, namely Hillary Clinton.
If we reach a point 40 years from now when your choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a republican supporting 10 genocides, are you still going to be militantly democrat and lash out at leftists who are sick of the whole thing?
woohoo. 10 genocides but such a moral victory.
In this hypothetical we wouldn’t have the option to vote 40 years from now because dim bulbs allowed an insurrectionist to be elected. Donald will also accelerate climate fuckery so anyway we’ll be too busy squabbling over what meager food comes out of the remaining arable regions.
Purely hypothetical question for you: Would you rather continue supporting Israel or see Biden win the 2024 election?
Enjoy the extra genocide Donald “Muslim ban” Trump brings to the conflict and starts up locally. You guys really want him to “finish the job,” huh?
That’s pretty repugnant IMO, but people like you are privileged enough to watch from afar as others lose their rights and their lives.
By not answering the question and participating in the process of this hypothetical choice the outcome is Israel is supported and Joe Biden loses the 2024 election.
Nope. I’ve stated this in multiple posts on other platforms, this is my last time going with this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. Because at some point, we HAVE to believe that it is intentional. I mean, what happened to “fool me once…”?
You think you will still be able to vote in 40 years if Donald “dictator for a day” Trump gets elected this time?
Oh my sweet summer child. Your vote will be as meaningful as the ones in Russia.
So if a Trump presidency means the end of democracy in America, why hasn’t Trump been outlawed?
Why is Biden focusing on banning TikTok instead of truth social? Why weren’t the courts getting stacked 2 years ago? Why are the democrats’ obsession with “precedent” and “civility” taking more primacy than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would mean the end of democracy?
By propping up Trump, the democrats have effortlessly oriented you such that you now give blind support to a genocidal regime. You’ve given the democrats a blank check. The democrats would rather lose to Trump and usher in fascism than shift left in the slightest way (halting genocide).
Also, epic reddit catchphrase my good sir. I tip my hat you, for you are a gentleman and a scholar.
When I was young my parents introduced me to some old school Communists; folks who’d fought in the Spanish Civil War and been blacklisted in the 1950s.
One of the stories they told was that back in 1968 the oldtimers were warning people to vote for Hubert Humphrey because they knew how bad Nixon would be, Too many young folks then thought ‘both sides are the same.’
I don’t know much about him, but reading that he lost the young people vote for supporting the Vietnam War is such a good parallel for today.
Damn, it sounds like he shouldn’t have supported that war. If only people had warned him about it.
Here’s a cool tidbit that’s probably gonna end up in the history books.
When asked if the protests have made him reconsider his policies in the region, Biden said “no.”
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-speaks-college-protests-israel-gaza-war/story?id=109870179
LBJ realized he’d made a giant mistake and hoped Humphrey could end the War. Nixon ran as a ‘peace’ candidate and made things much worse.
Trump’s people would nuke the entire Middle East hoping to bring about the Rapture.
At what point does Biden realize he’s made a giant mistake? You’re lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Turn it around.
Can you lay out a detailed plan showing Biden exactly what to do? Something that covers not just the Palestinians and the Israelis, but alos the iranians, the sryians, the russians, the Saudis, and all the other interested and highly armed parties in the region?
I have no idea how to restart a problem that’s been formenting since 1948, do you?
Stop shipping weapons to Israel.
If you think it’s that simple, you probably believed Trump was going to get Mexico to pay for the Wall.
You asked me a question and I answered it. Are you going to answer my question now?
At what point does Biden realize he’s made a giant mistake? You’re lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Or hell, let me ask you. Given the choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the election which would you choose?
Biden can’t decide that
It was decided by a treaty like 75 years ago.
To overthrow it would take massive changes and breaking contracts. Doable, but not in the time frame you want.
It really isn’t as simple as you think.
jesus, well this is cementing my choice to move to a deep blue state to get away from people politicizing my existence.
Assuming you’re in the LGBT spectrum … sorry to say even there you might not be safe if Trump gets a second term. Things have softened for the LGB so those folks might be okay, but trans folks … I’d be worried.
It also weakens purple states and national power when blue voters move out of purple states… Personally, I’d highly encourage folks moving to purple states to turn them more blue.
Michigan or Pennsylvania might be a good choice. I keep holding out for Ohio, but we need to give the gerrymandering issues (hopefully we finally will this year).
As a trans person in a deep blue state, I’m hoping my state’s politics give me just enough buffer time that I can find a way to GTFO before the gestapo comes for me
Yeah, nowhere is confirmed safe. Fascism is attempting to ascend. Welcome to the 1930s, get a passport and fill a backpack with non perishable calorie dense food.
Living in Ohio with my trans husband, we’re moving to Vermont this summer to get away from it all. I feel like I’m shirking my duty by taking our votes with us, but we really don’t want to be here come November. Ohio has gone to Trump two for two, and I’m not feeling lucky on number three.
Do what’s right for you and your partner, and then we can all continue to work on community, state, and country!!!
I’ll miss your vote, but I totally get it. Stay safe!
Go to Vermont. Like, seriously. Even though that state has a republican governor, Vermont is like one of the few states that gives a shit about a lot of rights.
The communist party of America consistently votes democrat and doesn’t run a candidate. Same with the American Nazi party and republicans.
My attitude is simple, deal with the problems you can impact. The 2024 elections will not result in a loss of support for Israel. A fascist wants to run a coup in America. That’s on the table, he’s running for president. That’s a problem we can deal with.
There’s a line from the last season of ‘The West Wing’ that I always think of.
It’s election Day and the GOP and Dem campaign managers run into each other in the hotel bar. One turns to the other and tells this story.
"Got into the cab at the airport and started chatting with the cab driver. He’s a really smart guy and we’re having a great chat. Just before I get out I ask him who he’s voting for today.
"He shakes his head. Damn, he tells me, I forgot it was election Day.’
Yepppp, I’ve had to tell so many people. I think it’s one of the benefits I got from being raised by a dyed in the wool democrat. We’d argue over a lot as I was pretty radical even as a teenager, but she taught me the value of voting and participating in the democratic process. And arguing with her taught me the value of convincing everyday folks of your position.
I hate to tell the demsocs that we probably won’t elect away the capital holding class, I’d love it if we could, but we won’t. But we sure as shit can fail to vote to keep our worker protections and environmental protections. And we can vote to get a better situation, it just won’t be a revolution all on its own.
I wish I could force every school to show what the original New Deal programs would look like if implemented today.
Exactly. It’s just concessions, but life’s a hell of a lot better with those concessions.
We watched Donald do worse than Watergate on live news broadcasts.
Hmm, what to do? Better throw my ballot in the trash, because I am against genocide. If anything gets worse under this openly racist putsch planner screeching about dictatorship and absolute immunity, well, there was no way to have seen that coming, right?
I mean I dunno maybe they shouldn’t have ran a guy named hubert humphrey, sounds like the name you’d give to a fictional whale in a children’s novel hoo lee
Hi. I’m not American. But we all understand Trump’s threats. Or the inherent threat he poses. I think I speak for the world.
I’m more worried about a system that let someone like that get this far!
there is an understandable wave of nihilism manifesting in the younger generations that will probably persist for as long as they live. i don’t imagine the united states will stop producing nihilists for a long time as the circumstances are not projected to change
I almost wish Jimmy Carter would run for a second term. 99? 82? Age is just a number now apparently anyway lol
Bernie is right.
He’s right frighteningly often.
I still don’t understand why he’ll never be president except, ofc, he would never play the games that come with politics these days.
America is fast losing its chance for redemption.
Because when idiots hear Socialism they see Communism and it’s frighteningly easy to start a red scare propaganda campaign to keep him off the big ticket.
The guy who fixes my car basically runs a French-style salon out of his shop, and he told me, “The South Will never vote Socialist.” Seems he’s right so far. That and he goes against the powers that be… Bernie would have been a nightmare for the rich and powerful.
He got outpolitiked in the 2020 primary. Really the only reason why he’s not president right now.
He had 4 years to shore up his weakness with black southern voters and never did. He could’ve offered Bootyjudge VP in exchange for staying in the race and keeping the center vote split but didn’t.
But but but I won’t vote in protest!1 That will definitely make them listen! (/s)
PSA: Not voting means you have the relevance of an old man yelling at a cloud.
You move the Overton window by voting. You want policy #857? You have to vote for policy #1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
I just want one of the “You can’t vote for Biden!” people to outline what I should do instead. What’s the play here? Dismantle the government? Sure, outline your plan and let’s see if it has any merit. Protest? Great, tell me when and where but it doesn’t preclude the need to vote.
They talk big, but if their entire plan begins with “don’t vote” and ends with “bitch about it online” then it’s not a great plan.
I just got a deranged one https://reddthat.com/comment/10184028
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despite the genocide!
As if the other option isn’t also genocide 🙄
Why is it so hard to ask for an option that isn’t genocide?
Because a First-Past-The-Post voting system doesn’t care about your ideals. Until we have a different system, literally your only hope of effecting change is to vote for one of the two partied candidates and work locally to influence your party from the bottom-up.
Voting third party doesn’t send a message you want it to send. It doesn’t send any message at all except “I approve of whatever you choose for me.”
Because capitalism profits from genocide. The question then is, are you ok with diet Palestinian genocide or would you prefer the supersized Palestinian genocide combo with a side of homegrown genocide?
There are 2 sets of voters in this nation.
Those who want to solve the problems we face, and those who just want to kick the can down the road for someone else while rich people get richer.
If you vote for republicans or democrats, you’re in the latter camp.
It really puts things into perspective when you think about it like this.
What problem do you believe you’re solving by making it easier for Trump to take office?
Are you offended that women still have some control over their reproductive health, and you need to see that eroded further?
Is it a problem that we aren’t allowed to sexually assault people without repurcussion?
Do you see issues with people still being allowed to vote?
Do you hate legal immigrants, which have consistently lost rights and been victimized by the Republican party over the past few administrations?
Do you dislike your ability to relatively-freely travel abroad, due to our many alliances?
Do you wish we had a giant wall that has been proven ineffective by virtually every single study on the subject, including GOP-backed ones?
Do you wish we were helping Israel commit genocide even harder than they already are?
My issue is that while we squabble over social issues, the ruling class fucks us with fiscal ones.
Greed and the growing disparity in wealth is the worst issue we face as a species.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder. Each option results in a loss because we don’t want actually want to address the disparity in wealth.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder.
…and you think we need to lose harder?
Or do you actually believe that the system that has had the same outcome literally every single election has a chance to produce a different result? How many third-party candidates have received more than 1.5% of the vote? I’ll help: exactly FOUR in the past HUNDRED YEARS.
Or do you actually just want Trump to win and are using your enlightened centrist persona to disguise that fact?
If you want to move the Overton window, you vote. That’s the perspective you need.
The Overton window is not something that can be changed electorally. Candidates can only get on the ballot in the first place if they’re within the Overton window, as anybody outside the window is “radical” or “extreme”, and the existing political powers forbid their candidacy. The electoral window is moved outside the electoral process, and only then can the electoral system permit new candidates with new ideas.
Lol yes it can. Why are we having idiotic discussion to disband the EPA? Because Trump won an election. That moved the Overton window, drastically at that. Why can’t Biden do ______? Because the Republicans still have a very real chance of winning. When the GOP has no chance of winning, then the Overton window can move more.
So… were just ignoring the current candidates? And the current debates and policies that each have pushed?
Yeah. You need to vote for candidates that don’t just look out for rich people.
Those people are never on my ballot, unfortunately.
How do you get that? By moving the Overton window. And how do you get that? By VOTING. But it seems you want to yell at a cloud instead. Something tells me you’ll just keep at this ‘whoo is me’, so I’m out.
Meanwhile, the Overton window has been shifting right radically. Seems like this lesser of two evils nonsense is actually doing the opposite of what you claim.
Moved because Trump won an election. But you want to suggest that’s just random? C’mon.
*Btw it’s moving the Overton window, not lesser of two evils as you want to put it. You want policy number 426? You have to vote for policy 1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
You are truly privileged that you don’t need to worry about more utterly corrupt Fundamentalists on SCOTUS.
Self-righteous bullshit. I want to solve problems someday and that’s precisely why I vote for Democrats. Letting Trumpists take over now will make any progress vastly harder for the foreseeable future.
You’re one of the latter.
Let me know when democrats start supporting policies that reduce the disparity in wealth.
We saw everything we needed to see with Bernie. Neither establishment party cares about regular, working class people.
Ah, so since one of your two options doesn’t give you everything you want, you’ve decided that you’re okay with the one that wants to take away everything you have. Cool story, good luck with that.
Let me know when another party gets more than a single digit percent of the vote.
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Ridin’ with Biden despite the genocidin’
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Let’s vote for trump and get some American boots on the ground! Can’t let the IDF take all of the glory!
You misspelled Netanyahu. Also you will have egg on your face from head to toe when you find out what Biden is really doing to stop the killing in the Mideast.
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Welcome to Lemmy, new account!
You move the Overton window by voting.
We did in 2020. It moved rightward.
Ah yes, that’s why union support is at a 60 year high.
Is that the sole measure of the overton window?
Is it fair to say that the overton window is only moving right when we are still making progress moving it left?
The overton window isn’t a zero-sum measure. It can expand simultaneously in both directions. Given that we have nazis in the street now, I’d say it’s not correct to say that it’s moving only left either.
That has little to do with whatever political machinations are occurring and more to do with housing and necessities inflation driving labor pressure as a lagging inflation indicator.
Think of it as a tectonic/landscape thing rather than the stupid games people happen to be playing on the landscape.
Of course if any of them had their heads out of their own asses, or the asses of their owners, they might recognize this and start adapting…
Lol you think Biden is right of Trump. Right well thank you for letting me know I don’t have to reply any further.
Not what I said but cool.
I could sus it like you think Biden moved it right (lol), but that requires you ignore Trump would have actually moved it rght, which is exactly the Overton window is moving it as left as you can every step, but why the fuck am I bothering even with this you’ll just say but but but but but but Biden bad! I’m out.
Bush moved it right. Obama moved it right. Trump moved it right. Biden moved it right.
Called it! Ok really that’s it.
Okiedokie.
The Unconcerned: “Orange man bad”
Me: YES! Orange man VERY bad, glad we were able to dumb it down for you in a way you can understand it.
Personally, i’m worried that the biden administration is underestimating the electoral importance of his decision to continue supporting Israel’s genocide against Palestinians.
I think it would be helpful if people tranformed their concerns from meaningless doomposting to active political effort.
Cause the first is almost as bad as not worrying at all.
That sound… As if millions of “muh corrupt DNC” trolls cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…
I’m not worried. I’m just utterly disappointed in the younger generation. Not in the whole typical way you’d expect older generations to be towards the younger ones.
It’s more along the sense of “put down your fucking memes and jokes for abit and realize the reality that’s around you” deal. Because we’re now seeing the Onion practiced in our daily lives, we can’t make the shit up that is actively happening in real time. And it doesn’t affect just me, it affects you too.
We can’t be putting off this shit forever and sit there going “aww, I just hope it gets better” naturally.
Because let’s put it this way, say you don’t vote this general election and Biden wins. Okay, cool, we’ve dodged Trump. But know that in the next 4 years, Biden is not eligible to be re-elected so good on you to no longer see him on the ballot, but you’ll never know who could be next after him and there isn’t a lot of strong favorability for his VP either. Trump for all we know, is likely going to run until he dies, so he’s going to be trying again and again so long as he’s living and so long as his voter base is there to back him.
But even when he dies, god knows what the Republicans will try propping up. We’ve got a bit of a glimpse of that when known fascists like DeSantis tried running for presidency. The only reason him and other candidates has lost is because they can’t touch Trump. But when Trump does die, you know they’ll be back again.
My point is we need to keep Republican interests the fuck away. They’re nothing but destruction. How much evidence do you need before you see that? It’s all fun and games to you with your jokes and memes until you’re on the internet bitching and griping for why you think shit hits the fan or why you’re struggling to make a living.
as a black person i’m worried that donald trump’s batting average isn’t showing the potential it should be this season. he should spend more time in the cages.
