Elon is a child that got his hands on a microphone. Treats his family like shit. I do not trust anyone that acts like he does with his kids and spouse.
EV demand is up but it’s also deeply subsidized and EVs technically even count some Plug in Hybrids.
A 2012 Volt VOLT is a EV by used EV tax standards.
I’d agree EVs are great for some but Plug in Hybrids are gateway drug to EVs and should be welcomed.
Full EVs are a joke. People just don’t want them. There is a much bigger market for hybrid vehicles, as that gives you the best of both worlds.
Ideally I would want an electric car for commuting to work. And a hybrid suv for long family road trips. Seems like the most practical combo of cars to own
A EV and Phev would be another great option for a 2 car household with non driving kids.
Hybrids are the equivalent of those DVD-VHS combos we had for like 5-8 years… an outlet for people still too hesitant to commit to the future. I went EV 4 months ago and have heard the same statement over and over from friends who have also gone EV… “I’ll never go back”. They’re cleaner, quieter, quicker, simpler, and a lot more fun to drive. A shame there is so much misinformation circulating, but not surprising given the multibillion dollar oil & gas industry has so much to lose.
Once the charging infrastructure improves dramatically, this will change. I’m still all for EV dominance.
keep telling yourself that toyota… might eventually be true. lol
Why does it matter? An EV company like Tesla was never going to make EVs that way Toyota could lean halfway into EVs with hybrids. EV demand can chill, but the most chilling is the overpriced ugly SUVs you see, and at least in the US, the Model 3 is the most affordable “acceptable” EV you can get.
If this proposed Model 2 ever comes out, I’d get it over a hybrid that still has to have oil changed. My second issue with Tesla is how much they cost to repair over a simple shitbox, but gas takes precedent.
By “acceptable” do you mean ignoring the entire A and B segments cars which make up the majority of global vehicle shipment?
The Chevy bolt is actually more affordable.
Many people wouldn’t purchase one if occupied unreliable and low quality leaf in my mind
That’s why he said “acceptable” for some reason the Bolt is on no one’s radar even when it is everything a cheap EV that everyone’s been asking for. The Model 3 is like twice as expensive, with the shittier touch screen controls. Bolt is supreme, and I die on this hill.
Agreed. The bolt is a better car. It’s what most ev buyers want. A simple easy to use car. As for the Tesla, be careful about what you say. Given that Tesla owners and lovers are fiercely protective over that shitty brand lol.
Now they’re a ‘smoking-hot market’ as EV demand chills
I really cannot find any data whatsoever that suggests EV demand is slowing down, as it just reached a sales record in the most recent quarter with a 49.8% growth YoY: https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales#Q3_2023_Electric_Vehicle_Market_Share_and_Sales_US
What’s up with these low quality clickbait articles that twist facts and mislead readers? Fortune, Forbes, Business Insider etc have been churning them out nonstop for this past month.
Yeah, there has been blatant EV misinformation on this sub and in the media in general. EV sales are only growing. Not slowing. It’s a careful misrepresentation of percentages that makes it look like EV growth is falling. Look at every major auto manufactures sales reports and EV sales are outperforming expectations nearly across the board.
Do this much digging into every headline (even the ones you agree with) and you may be surprised what you find.
But this sub eats it up anyway. Stop making sense! EVs are stupid and a failure!
Technically slowing demand increase, I guess, which is close enough to “slowing demand” for the author of these articles not to have to feel grimy for being clickbait. (Although they should.)
Dollars from petrol companies.
And from Toyota. Instead of actually investing money into making BEVs, they are investing all their resources in churning out headlines about their breakthrough battery tech (coming soon!) and other fud.
Who funded those flamboyant videos? Who is behind them? It isn’t Toyota’s style. Could it be Tesla itself, false flagging Big Daddy Toyota?
The “writers” at these sites probably just copy/pasted oil company marketing people’s requests directly into ChatGPT lol.
Hanlon’s razor
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
Brilliant
You mean like how every explosion on a Russian military base is caused by careless smoking 🚬?
Dollars from r/cars users
Did they mention people who drive manual have bigger dicks?
Actually my stick shift adds to the length of my johnson…and increases sales by 48%.
Look I think I’m on your side but I swear I hear way more complaining about stick shift supremacists than actual stick shift supremacist nonsense. Quite possibly the dumbest lasting schism in the automotive community.
I feel this is less EV attacks and more Elon Musk attacks, honestly.
equally cringe imo
Toyota thinks EV demand is low because demand for Toyota’s shitty EVs is low.
Because they are holding out for better battery tech. Ssd battery that can have range of 700+ miles with 10-30min charge. Toyota doesnt fall into “latest is greatest” bullshit. They adopt well researched and refined tech only.
In 2012 Toyota claimed their solid-state batteries were coming in 2017.
In 2017 they claimed they were coming in 2020.
In 2020 they claimed they were coming in 2023.
In 2023 they claimed they were coming in 2027.
I wonder what will happen in 2027?
Toyota just announced that in 2030 they will have enough solid state batteries for about 10,000 cars.
It’s just not a serious plan.
Like hydrogen?
Toyota has EV?
They might as well not have. It’s such an embarrassingly bad vehicle that it does nothing for their bottom-line, while costing them in brand reputation.
It’s interesting as reports coming from China and the EU are having blockbuster EV sales a few weeks ago with Norway leading with 80% EV local sales.
Lol this is like the guy the other day who’s post said “The Real Cost of Ev is $17/gallon” or some dumbass shit from some Texas study. I pointed out the “study” was done by the following organization:
Report is by the Texas Public Policy Foundation
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Public_Policy_Foundation
“Projects of the organization include Right on Crime, which is focused on criminal justice reform,[4] and Fueling Freedom, which seeks to “explain the forgotten moral case for fossil fuels”[5] by rejecting the scientific consensus on climate change.[6]”
“Donors to the organization include energy companies Chevron, ExxonMobil, and other fossil fuel interests.”
People are talking shit on EVs non stop. The amount of times I’ve seen people call Teslas and other EVS shitboxes (there’s a guy like 3 comments down saying this) that break non stop and cant even hit 100k miles, or think they burn a house down or catch fire while driving, or they think they only get 180 miles and have to charge for 45 mins before going another 180 is insane. The amount of misinformation is crazy.
Btw, the mods left that article up and just attached the “misleading” tag to it, so you can see where they stand. Mods shouldn’t be letting bullshit “studies” about EVS be posted from a group like the above, but instead they left it up so double digit iq idiots can point to it as another reason to avoid EVS while quoting that article.
I kind of agree with the mods leaving it up. We should definitely be able to see what shitty journalism is being put out there, so that we can identify bad actors not give credibility to them. People that don’t look at the flair AND don’t read the articles are going to be misinformed regardless.
The mods in here are brutal. 6 million users and there’s only 5 new posts a day
Reminds me of the German study stating EVs produce way more CO2 than petrol cars using the Hypothese "every kWh used comes from coal plants and cars are produced using coal energy while petrol cars are built using clean energy and petrol transportation as well as refinement were not considered.
Anecdotally they’re probably talking about Ford eating a bunch of shit and cutting a billion or two from previous economic forecasts chalked up to EVs. This type of data wouldn’t be published collectively as it would have a severe chilling effect on certain auto manufactures equities.
But if you’re inclined to, pull MB, BMW, VAG, and Ford commentaries from their last few quarterly investor relations calls and you should see a pattern. Bullish in 19-22, neutral in 22-early 23, negative neutral in mid 23.
My understanding is that overall demand hasn’t slowed but the market is well saturated now so demand for specific automakers appears to be slowing. For example, the Mach E will be lucky to top last year’s sales which is very distressing for Ford when sales are expected to be significantly climbing.
It’s hard, a lot of the studies and stats around EVs not selling well and piling up on dealer lots is because Tesla continues to eat everyone’s lunch. They don’t have dealer lots so they’re conveniently not included when articles state that EV inventory is ridiculously high, and as long as they remain a significantly better value than anything the OEMs are putting out things will remain that way (slow EV growth by legacies, piling up on lots).
That and they also have the most compelling vehicles for the money and by far the best charging network. A model 3 or Y seems like a great value compared to the competition at its price point.
There’s a reason EV prices are falling off a cliff.
Recall that the market is saturated with Ev crossovers.
Yes it’s the biggest market, but there’s literally a dozen options now. Obviously sales will be split.
Yep more competition in the space is absolutely good, but is also starting to highlight some of the shitty practices by dealers. Lots of Ford dealers putting markups on Mach-E’s and Lightnings, then Ford is struggling to sell their EVs… doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out.
It’s mostly because no one can handle ford’s dealership bullshit. I went with Tesla because I can’t stand those assholes trying to scam you for an hour before offering you an ok deal while acting like they’re a gift from god. That’s how it was last time I went in there
If growth is less YoY per quarter then growth is slowing.
EVs are better in every way except convenience. The last time I needed to charge my Polestar, I had to wait an hour because there was only one charger in the whole town. In NYC, I have to drive to the one or two EV fast charging stations in Brooklyn which takes at least 20 minutes in traffic and then another hour waiting to get it full.
Fortunately we’re adding a fast charger to the house but it’s way way more convenient to simply spend 5 minutes filling up at a gas station. And electric cars are expensive and they really don’t give you very much for the money. Especially if you don’t care about software. I can understand why people are holding out for as long as possible.
I really cannot find
any
data whatsoever that suggests EV demand is slowing down, as it just reached a sales record in the most recent quarter with a 49.8% growth YoY:
Shitty journalists. They write what gets the clicks. That’s it.
Talking percentages is kind of misleading with EV’s since the number of cars sold is much smaller compared to ICE (for obvious reasons). A 50% Q3 increase in EV sales is about 100K vehicles. I’m having trouble finding ICE only data, but all vehicle sales in Q3 23 had a 15% increase over Q3 22 which is about 600K cars. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
The reason people say EV sales are slowing is because the growth is not as high as it was, even though it’s still growth. EV’s often sit on dealer lots longer than their ICE counterparts currently. Check out the Cox data on this from Q2 and Q3.
And I’m not arguing EV vs ICE because they both have their place. I’m strictly talking about the numbers.
The dealer lot info is really irrelevant. It shows an in-balance in supply demand for some brands, but overall speaking only sales number matter.
You can argue what happened was some companies overestimated the growth of EV market or overestimated the desirability of their own product.
Elon musk hater probably
Dissing Elon Musk generates clicks
I was walking down the street the other day, seething with rage over Elon Musk, as always. I couldn’t contain my facial twitches and mutterings to myself when I happened upon a young woman who asked me if something was wrong.
I began the way I started every conversation, “Oh, Elon Musk, you say? Fuck him! Fuck that motherfucker.”
“…who?”
I continued on, the way a Redditor like me always does. “Did you know his father owned an emerald mine? Or that he wasn’t even one of the original founders of one of the companies he now runs? Outrageous.” The very idea that someone could lead a company to greater success than the people who created it nearly made me shit my pants in sheer fury.
She kept her eyes on me while her head drew back. ”Oh, uh, yeah. I get a little bit jealous, too, when one of my friends does well for themselves.”
“Oh, I never met the guy. I just post on the Internet every day about how angry he makes me. The way he forces me to read everything he posts on Twitter…it’s intolerable. I wish our benevolent car dealerships and oil companies would squash him like a bug already.”
“Riiiight.” She stepped away slowly at first before taking off into a sprint. That Felon Muskrat. His cult had gotten to another innocent person with their brainwashing and propaganda.
The Internet was really going to hear about it today.
This is great lol
Shame awards are not a thing anymore
Forbes is no longer Forbes and hasn’t been for a while.
Financial Times is the best mainstream physical publication news. The rest are clickbait versions of themselves.
Since when?
Reuters is ok for people who want free financial news. I wish people just linked to the Reuters article more than the equivalent click bait article on other sites. Bloomberg is nearly on FT tier too and is 10 bucks a month.
The sheer amount of EV’s sitting in lots now… and the ability to go on cars.com and find thousands of em… back in late 2021 to early 2022, I tried searching for EV’s to buy on cars.com and couldn’t find SHIT. Now in 2023, there’s a fuckton of EV’s for sale. And I tell you, I was on cars.com every single day looking for a Bolt to buy in early 2022. I would’ve sprung for an EV if I waited, but I needed a car right away.
Hybrids? Much harder to find, especially Toyota hybrids. My local dealers are constantly trying to get more Priuses and Corolla Hybrids in stock, and Rav4 Primes are basically impossible to find, even used. I can go on cars.com and find 100 used Model Y’s in my area, heck even on Facebook. No one is selling their hybrids on Facebook or any site.
The article has Toyota in the title, we should look no further than this is FUD. I even saw an article posted on wsb about Toyota bringing solid state cars. Outside of the weekly 1-2 articles already posted on here and electricvehicles that one really made it clear how much they are trying to make people hold off on buying an EV because “better is right around the corner”.
I really cannot find any data whatsoever that suggests EV demand is slowing down
This horse has been beaten to the bone. YoY growth is still positive, but it is rapidly dropping off as 2022 had 65% YoY growth and 2021 had 89%. That’s not what you want to see when EV’s are only holding a single digit market share and just barely broke 1 million vehicles sold.
Combined with the fact that they are piling up at dealers, it tells you that supply has totally outpaced demand. We can’t hit 100% EV sales by 203X if it’s only growing 50% YoY at 7% market share with a downwards growth trend. Meanwhile, Toyota is hitting record profits partly with increased Hybrid sales (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/toyota-sales-profits-and-production-hit-record-levels/).
All this really means is that things are slow for whatever reason, and you probably shouldn’t pay a markup for an EV. The manufacturers are postponing production expansion until it makes sense.
This horse has been beaten to the bone
Yet I’m here arguing the same thing for the Nth time.
It is absolutely expected for the growth to slow down over time, that is true for any new products past the very early adopter phase.
And even discard math, we are just now normalizing from the crazy 2021-2022 market into a more normal market with much higher interest rate. The overall EV growth still far out paces overall market growth, and outpaces hybrid growth.
Meanwhile, Toyota is hitting record profits partly with increased Hybrid sales
From your article, Toyota’s hybrids sale increased by 27%, which is far less than the market growth for EVs. And btw a lot of their increased profit was from them reporting lower cost due to Yen’s value crashing over the past year.
It didn’t seem like any manufacturers really anticipated it to slow down. I expected EV’s to rocket to maybe 20% market share before slowing, but that’s also why I question if this is a real downturn or just a temporary dip.
As for Hybrids, I think it’s notable because of how many get sold. Crunching the math in the article, Toyota alone sold about 1.5 Million hybrids, but that shouldn’t be a big surprise. I think the real takeaway here is that manufacturers should be making some hybrids rather than allocating so many batteries to half-baked or overpriced EVs. Making an EV just to say you have an EV is probably not worth it at this point.
I expect that the EV market share will pop when somebody releases something exciting. I just dont care about all of these stupid crossovers. The model 3 is the only EV that I would actually consider buying and it is pretty tired at this point
It’s becoming a meme, but I think solid state batteries are the hold up when it comes to fun EV’s. The current battery tech is just too weak and too heavy.
What surprises me is the lack of hybrid sports cars. We an EV Mustang thing and the regular Mustang but no Hybrid option. It all just seems odd to me when supercar manufacturers are very much embracing Hybrids to make fast cars.
CEOs and shareholders only care about growth of growth, that’s why they’re real jerks.
The auto manufacturers themselves are saying EV sales are slowing down:
https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10
The problem isn’t that EV sales have stopped, but that growth is slowing faster than forecast. For an market segment with some pretty stiff regulations and govt mandated goals coming in the very near future, this is worrying.
Some relevant quotes:
… this week on GM’s third-quarter earnings call, Barra and GM struck a more sober tone. The company announced with its quarterly results that it’s abandoning its targets to build 100,000 EVs in the second half of this year and another 400,000 by the first six months of 2024. GM doesn’t know when it will hit those targets.
“This is a pretty brutal space,” CFO Harald Wilhelm said on an analyst call. “I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody.”
… inventory builds up at dealerships, much to the chagrin of dealers. While car buyers are in luck if they’re looking for a deal on a plug-in vehicle, executives are finding even significant markdowns and discounts aren’t enough.
The point is that a much higher growth rate is needed to support the investments that automakers have made in EVs. Whether the growth rate is higher or lower than the figure for hybrids is not relevant. The rate of EV adoption has slowed below what analysts were projecting and the rate for hybrids has done the opposite.
I agree with you, but there is such a thing as the growth of the growth, not just the growth.
Just from my own recent anecdotal experience trying to buy a new PHEV, hybrids are harder to shop for now than EVs. Ford dealer had quite a few Mach-Es but only one PHEV. Hyundai dealer had quite a few Ioniq 5 and 6s…but no PHEV in stock. Did a demo of the Toyota Prius Prime…absolutely stunning car…wanted it bad…9-month wait list. Ended up with a used Hyundai Ioniq PHEV. Amazing car by the way. EV most of the time (40km range) but massive range if needed (900km) and no range anxiety.
Other than the serious comments here my snarkiness needs to take over: Even if Elon wanted to make a hybrid he damn well can’t because if Tesla can make an electric car a fucking shitbox God knows how badly they’d fuck up developing an ICE engine, let alone an entire hybrid system. I’d actually bet their ICE engines would be somehow worse than Stellantis 🥴
I personally will never drive full electric no matter how much it’s pushed. I don’t own one but hybrids are just the best option currently we should’ve made hybrids the main focus while quietly developing full electric. Being able to use gas or not use gas is just such a net positive in every way imaginable
Not smoking hot but people in condos and no chargers can’t buy EV’s unless they shop at the mall for hours and hours and hours.
I agree with Elon. I don’t see any sense in hybrids when EVs get 300+ miles of range. Add in the charging infrastructure getting much better and hybrids just don’t make sense.
Basically right now i think the logical choices are an EV or an ICE. I don’t think any in-betweens make sense, in the US at least.
Also, I think we don’t talk enough about how much cleaner the air in cities would be if EVs were more common. If we would stop being stupid and build a shitload of nuclear power plants we’d be way better off in terms of air quality.
Toyota sales fell, BEV sales went up. Someone’s lying.
Isn’t the Toyota sales directly related to production though? Like they literally can’t produce enough to meet demand? I thought that was why Toyota and a few other brands (I think Honda was another) are still struggling with inventory.
Yea they going to have a record year. Sales are not falling at all and the sky isn’t falling. They’re not phasing out “like blackberry”
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/toyota-sales-profits-and-production-hit-record-levels/
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/11/toyota-sales-profits-and-production-hit-record-levels/
Toyota is going to have a record year in sales and will be the largest automotive manufacturer again. It isn’t even going to be close. They’ve been number 1 in the last 4/5 out of the last 5/6 years.