I saw a documentary about a guy trying to find a “humane” execution method, he came to the conclusion that suffocation with nitrogen gas probably was the least bad.
It doesn’t trigger a feeling of panic as CO2 poisoning does, you simply drift away in a hypoxic high filled with mild confusion without the dread.
People on both sides of the death penalty issue thought is was barbaric, proponents of the death penalty thought it was wrong to remove the suffering from the person, they felt it would be wrong to let say a serial killer just drift away in a high, while opponents of the death penalty felt it was barbaric as it would lessen the felt impact of taking a life and might cause governments to reinstate the death penalty.
It was an interesting documentary…
That was one of Louis Theroux’s phenomenal docos.
He was super confused at the end when he was met with “but we want to hurt them” it was a bit funny how jarring it was, but also really sad.
I think I found the one I saw, it was this BBC Horizon documentary:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/executions/
https://imdb.com/title/tt1228865/
I am sure I am on a list now for googling
horizon how to kill a human being
Eh, who am I kidding, everyone is on whatever lists the powers that be decide they want us on…
Synopsis:
Former Conservative MP, Michael Portillo pushes his body to the brink of death in an investigation into the science of execution.
As the American Supreme Court examines whether the lethal injection is causing prisoners to die in unnecessary pain Michael sets out to find a solution which is fundamentally humane. To do so he examines the key methods of execution available today: he discovers why convicts can catch on fire in the electric chair, learns how easy it is to botch a hanging and inhales a noxious gas to experience first hand the terror of the gas chamber.
Armed with some startling evidence Michael considers a completely new approach. Will it be the answer? There is only one way of finding out - to experience it himself.
Oh wow that looks interesting, I’ll have to have a watch!
If done right, sure.
Alabama tried to kill the person first in line already with lethal injection and failed, so the odds of them doing nitrogen gas right is pretty fucking slim.
They’d have to fuck it up to a truly astonishing degree for it to be anywhere near as bad as a failed execution using the other methods currently in use. Like maybe use chlorine gas instead of nitrogen.
They just need to not have good seals on the mask so non-nitrogen air leaks in which would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation.
Note that they keep fucking up to an astonishing degree, so it is likely to happen with any method they try.
would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation
If you don’t understand the science, please STFU.
A bad seal means that the co2 is not being removed properly and not being replaced with nitrogen as designed. Plus the person knows they are being killed, which makes the smallest physical symptoms more noticeable since people do notice things they are expecting.
Being hostile while defending the state that keeps fucking up executions makes you look like an ass.
No. It would either work more slowly or it wouldn’t work. There would be no pain.
The feeling of suffocation comes from a buildup of CO2 in the body, not from a lack of oxygen.
Since regular air is pretty close to 80/20 nitrogen and oxygen, simply removing the oxygen results in a painless, odorless death.
It’s actually a concern for people using rebreathers. If the CO2 scrubber keeps working but new oxygen isn’t introduced into the system, the diver will go from feeling fine to passing out without ever knowing it.
Air leaks means that the co2 is not going to be efficiently removed, and your example of a diver is actually supporting the point that the seal needs to be really good for it to be effective. Note that the person drifting off in an execution knows they are dying which is different than just drifting off unknowingly. Painless doesn’t mean it isn’t causing stress from the knowledge of imminent death.
Plus the underlying context of the state fucking up all of their execution methods shows they will fuck this up too. It doesn’t matter how good the method is in theory when they are incompetent.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about here.
A poor mask seal won’t cause them to inhale enough of their exhaled CO2 unless they’re also putting a bag over their head, and the level of atmospheric CO2 doesn’t cause the sensation of suffocation, otherwise you’d feel like you were suffocating at all times.
The death penalty is barbaric, but if you’re going to do it, this is the least-painful method, and one in which botching the execution simply results in nothing happening, as opposed to ther methods where it causes pain and injury.
Yes, the psychological pain/stress isn’t alleviated by nitrogen. I personally think the biggest improvement they could make (aside from abolising the death penalty) would be to do it without a mask in a hyperbaric chamber where the elevated partial pressure of nitrogen would result in nitrogen narcosis and may relieve some of the stress.
A poor seal affects air going in and being pulled out, because the outside air can flow past the air next to the mouth and down the exit tube without going through the person’s lungs. Especially if the faulty seal is on the exit tube connections, which is the kind of fuck up that the state is fully capable of doing.
Without that circulation, they will keep breathing the same air, which will build up CO2.
The system is complex and you apparently assume it is simple and comparable to a room full of nitrogen. The mask is actually more complex.
You clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
I understand the arguments put forth, so how about a band saw?
I feel divided on this topic.
Im in two minds about it.
I’m personally a fan of the James Bond’esque “Strap them to a Saint Andrew’s cross and slowly cut them in half with a burning laser” method.
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So both sides just wanted some blood eagle shit
We want rehabilitation
It was just too far removed from either side.
One night working late a coworker of mine nearly went that way. He was just tired and said he was spacing out. Meanwhile the alarms were blaring.
Man if I were the guy this was first being tested on I would probably try and fuck it up in the worst way possible just to screw with the people executing me.
Like as soon as the gas turns on start screaming my ass off like they mixed up nitrogen gas with acid gas instead and produced the worst pain ever until I finally passed out.
Just wrong. You only drift off if you are unaware that you are suffocating! The person being executed is fully aware that they are dying via suffocation. That person is going to be in full panic mode trying to get as much air into their lungs as possible.
Pure nitrogen gas is a significant industrial hazard for the reasons you stated. There is sure to be an element of panic since they are aware that they are being executed. That is going to be true whether the execution is being done via hypoxia, injection, or firing squad.
I suppose it depends on your exact definition of suffocating. You will absolutely be able to take full, satisfying breaths the entire time. If you do not tell them when the gas is turned on, even knowing that it’s coming, they would be unlikely to even notice.
While there are no clinical studies (for obvious reasons), there is footage of industrial accidents. It seems that people succumb VERY quickly, possibly on their first full breath.
Most debates around execution methods are about the method itself. They typically exclude the morality and cruelty of the idea of a death penalty in general. I don’t think this one can be separated, though. The concern is that it’s untested for executions, but the only way to test it is to use it for executions. There is ample evidence of its use on livestock, but this is of limited value for humans.
As a side note, no medical doctors can be involved with executions. It’s a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
Source?
This place is a gold mine
I thought a whip-it
How do you source that? If people actually cared about quick and painless we’d just go back to beheadings. But it’s not for the person being executed. It’s so people can feel good about themselves when it’s done.
Have you experienced the effects of nitrogen? I’m asking where you got that info from. There are videos of the use of nitrogen on animals.
Those videos do not match what you are describing.
Well I have seen someone nearly die from it and according to him he was just tired and spacing out.
Same. Diving tank fill accident near Wilmington, NC. Just like CO, they had basically no idea. Not even the headache that CO gives you.
This is false.
The previous statement requires faith. Otherwise it would probably be true.
So before people freak out too much- and yes, executions shouldn’t be a thing (I personally make a few exceptions… but I’m an asshole…) let’s take a moment and realize that nitrogen hypoxia is the method used in suicide pods
While yeah, the moments before it happen are probably terrifying for the condemned- and that probably is where they’re getting “torture” from… it’s far less painful and awful a way to go… than lethal injection or electric chairs or old-school gas chambers;
Yes, executions are barbaric. I won’t argue there (and will join you in their condemnation,)
It sounds as though they fucked it up, though. Industrial accidents with inert gassed flooding a room of unsuspecting people are pretty rare (most rooms aren’t sealed, etc,) there are cases where people never notice before dropping.
Shoulda known ‘bama would fuck it up somehow,
The mental state of the person is the difference. One person has willingly placed themselves in the suicide pod, while the other is likely to fight for air. If we’re going to execute people we shouldn’t be pacifying with that actually means.
So people on death row should suffer from more cruel methods? They should run the risk of botched executions from people that received no training? Nitrogen is safe and effective. Put a mask on, open the tank. That’s it. Do we need to complicate the process? Would that make it better in your eyes? If we’re going to execute people (which we fucking shouldn’t) why do we have to make it worse?
That’s not my point. My point is why sanitizer the reality of the situation? “humane” executions aren’t for the person being killed. It’s so the people doing the execution can feel good about themselves when it’s done. If you cared about quick and painless, go back to beheadings. Considering how often we get things wrong in the justice system, prosecutors, judges, and the jury should be required to watch the execution as well. And once again Nitrogen gas has never been experimented on an individual that knows they are going to die. They will know during the process what is happening. It’s just laughable to assume that people’s experience with accidental nitrogen exposure will be the same as someone strapped down and knowing what is happening. How long do you leave them exposed? Maybe they just go into a comma, and come to after air returns to the room but are now brain dead. I just don’t get how people have gone full circle back to suffocating executions?!
Ok. So I was right. Executions should be painful and cause suffering because that’s the entire point. Quick, simpler, more effective,.more humane methods shouldn’t be utilized because it is antithetical to executions. Inert gas asphyxiation has been tested and it is a popular method of assisted suicide. People use it often with the intention of dying. To say it hasn’t been tested on people who know they are going to die is just flat out bullshit. Philip Nitschke a former physician and founder of Exit International developed the exit bag with the specific intent of providing a peaceful way for people to kill themselves, assisted or not. He also invented the sarco pod for these exact reasons, using nitrogen as the preferred inert gas. Inert gas works well. Full stop.
It would also be very easy to ensure people are dead before removing them from the pod. It’s called an ecg. Hell, even a pulse oximeter that displays heart rate (which is virtually all of them and can be obtained for a few bucks from a drug store) would work in a pinch. Monitor their heart rate, once asystole presents, wait a few minutes before removing the gas. It is exceptionally more simple to confirm death with inert gas than by other methods such as lethal injection, which is the most common nowadays. Do you know how easy it is to fuck up lethal injection?
I honestly feel like everyone is taking crazy pills to support the gas chamber 2.0
It’s not like they didn’t say the same fucking things about lethal injection, gas chamber, and the electric chair.
This will inevitably back fire for several reasons.
The fact that you feel it’s appropriate to compare this to gas chambers highlights how willfully ignorant you are. Nitrogen isn’t zyklon B or cyanide and sulphuric acid. 78% of the air you breathe is nitrogen for fucks sake. The mechanisms at play are nothing like each other. They’re not even on the same planet.
It’s an incredibly simple procedure with essentially zero room for fuck ups. Can you put a mask on and turn a knob? Congrats, youve done it! We know how hypoxia presents in people that aren’t being actively strangled. You get light headed, giddy, confused, and then you pass out. All within a minute. It’s quick, potentially euphoric and you’ll be out before your oxygen starved brain knows what’s going on.
If we’re going to execute people, which we obviously shouldn’t, them it should be as quick and painless as possible. I know you don’t give a shit about that since you’ve stated twice that executions should be painful and cause suffering because “that’s the point”, but pull your head out of your ass. Stop getting off on the idea of painful executions and leave room for people who know what the fuck they’re talking about to pave the way forward.
Your individual opinion doesn’t matter, but if enough people are fooled into believing the same braindead garbage you’re spewing then the cruel and innefective methods we’re currently using will stay in use for the foreseeable future. Keep your dog shit opinions to yourself so it doesn’t spread
I know the science behind the theory. Dude you have way too faith in states willingness get executions correct or that they’ll actually care if asphyxiation via any type of gas is or isn’t painful.
My point is why sanitizer the reality of the situation?
That’s a very strange interpretation, one which can be used against any change to any procedure for the purposes of reducing cruelty or barbarism. Do you really think gas chambers of all devices is to make people forget that someone is being executed?
That also raises the question of, how much less sanitized should it be then? Like, I think most would agree that medieval shit is too much sadism, so where do you think the line should be drawn? Oubliette? The rack? Hanging? Most innovations in execution are for the purpose of reducing unnecessary suffering, both for the executee and witnesses, because if you can perform capital punishment without the torture then opting for the torture is a choice, and most people are generally favorable to the idea of “less suffering is good.”
while the other is likely to fight for air.
The body doesn’t actually sense the amount of oxygen in your blood. Instead, there’s assorted ways it detects elevated levels of CO2.
That works great when you’re e.g. swimming under water or are holding your breath. Low oxygen naturally coincides with excess CO2.
But it’s dangerous in low oxygen environments. CO2 doesn’t build up, so you don’t sense that you’re running low on oxygen.
People die accidentally from inert gas asphyxiation. It’s sneaky like that.
This is honestly stupid.
They spent insane amount of cash to kill the guy, yet even then they keep failing to do just that.
Either just give him the heavily tested (on animals) and scientifically supported nitrogen, if you really need to kill him that bad or just send him to a damn prison and forget about him.
? They ARE giving him the nitrogen. I’m guessing these experts didn’t want to jump into the Israel fight so found something else to focus on.
Or these experts have no expertise on Israel, so they are smart enough not to do that as experts.
I can’t think of a more current hotbed for torture than Israel or Russia at the moment, can you?
Only one of the four experts’ area of expertise involved torture.
How about the United States? 🤔
Issue is, this isn’t the first time I’m reading about someone complaining about the execution method.
The guy’s lawyers were raising complaints about it as well, most likely to try to postpone the execution.
Every day the guy’s alive costs the state money, it costs the time of his lawyers, judges and these “experts” and for what? To postpone his death a couple months? To have him get an arguably more painful and error-prone executiom method?
It’s just a waste of resources. Either kill him if they must or stash him away for the rest of his life in a high security prison, this circus is unproductive for all parties involved.
I completely forgot america is still killing animals in shelters with gas chambers. Completely crazy how people there think that is ok
It’s ok because if they’re killing them in the first place, nitrogen is quite a “peaceful” way to do it
The primary point is that some states have not yet managed to arrive in the 20th century and abandon capital punishment altogether. And yes, I meant 20th century, not 21st.
The method of killing people is just a measurement of how politically retarded they are.
… Alabama is now asking for volunteers to try it out on first. UN experts are yet to sign up.
Alabama is the trailer park of the US
Mobile homes legit got their names, not for their mobility, but for their production site.
Mobile, Alabama.
Do you have a source for that fun detail? Wikipedia doesn’t mention Mobile Alabama anywhere in their article on mobile homes, and I can’t find any history of a brand named Mobile Homes or any company based out of Mobile that would have caused this etymology to become the default term.
Edit: nevermind I found a valid source. Snopes has a great summary of the Alabama history.
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And on top of that awesome bit of trivia they add this!
Trivia: The 1974 Lynyrd Skynyrd hit “Sweet Home Alabama” was a reworking of a 1951 radio jingle advertising “Sweet Homes, Alabama.”
Presumably connecting that song to trailer parks!
This is the kind of cross-section of weird & informative that I’m looking for in my life.
chef’s kiss 🤌
It’s one of several in the US
This is a dilemma.
On the merits of nitrogen hypoxia as a method of execution:
Nitrogen hypoxia is one of the most peaceful, least painful deaths available, and the concerns of a tortuous death are pretty unrealistic.The air we breathe is 80% nitrogen 20% oxygen, so the body has no adverse reaction to nitrogen. Remove the oxygen, so the person breathes 100% nitrogen 0% oxygen, and the air will feel normal, there is no feeling of suffocation or shortness of breath. However without oxygen one will lose consciousness within a minute or two, and be dead in 5-10 minutes.
For reference, airplanes are pressurized at high altitudes because the less dense air contains fewer molecules of oxygen per lung volume. Past about 11,000’ above sea level, there’s not enough oxygen in the air to sustain full consciousness. Here’s a video of that- the alarm is going off in that guy’s airplane because the pressurization system failed. But in an oxygen-deprived state, he happily reports to the controller with a smile that he’s totally unable to control his aircraft but other than that everything is peachy. You’ll note he is totally unbothered by his condition.
When the controller orders him to descend to 11,000 feet, air density increases, his brain starts working normally again, and he starts making coherent radio calls.The point of this isn’t to be funny, it’s to illustrate that in a hypoxic state he was totally calm and happy and not in any distress at all, even though his aircraft was out of control. So if anything, nitrogen hypoxia might be the most peaceful way to die, as in their final moments the condemned may be less concerned about the fact that they are being executed.
The only possible ‘botch’ I can imagine, is if either the condemned isn’t breathing 100% nitrogen, or the nitrogen is shut off before breathing stops, that could leave the condemned in a state of hypoxic brain damage. That could leave him a vegetable, or alive and awake but brain damaged (low IQ, cognitive problems, etc). That’s the sort of state most places consider ‘unfit to stand trial’ and he gets remanded to a care facility probably for life. And that would require a pretty bad botching to create that situation.
But I still hope the complaint stalls things:
On the other hand, I think execution is a barbaric punishment, and I think we should do all we can to abolish it anywhere it still exists. So I support this group, even though their concerns are unscientific to the point of ridicule.I also suspect I’m very much not alone here. I’m not a doctor, but I am a private pilot and a scuba diver, so I understand what a body needs in terms of breathing gas a bit more than average. I know for a fact I could write a totally bulletproof execution protocol that would provide a reliable, quick, humane, pain-free death. But if I was asked to, I’d refuse, even if it meant giving the condemned a less painful death. Because if such a protocol existed, if the legal system as a whole recognized nitrogen hypoxia as a quick and painless method of execution, that then removes a hurdle for pro-death-penalty states to start executing people.
I suspect I’m not alone because the knowledge I have is far from uncommon. Ask any pilot or astronaut or person involved with breathing gas systems and they’ll tell you the same thing. Yet, few if any seem to be stepping up to ‘solve’ the problem of a humane execution protocol.Gives me hope for the future of humanity.
Yeah, I haven’t and won’t make a plan but have often thought to myself that if I ever do kill myself that’s how I’m gonna do it. Literally just like falling asleep. I’d much much much rather take that than lethal injection
That’s the way I am going to most likely go. One day get some medical test result that doesn’t look good, login remotely to one of the many industrial sites I help manage, set off an alarm for the weekend, come in to the nitrogen storage room, replace the gasket on a valve with a worn out one, then go to sleep for the last time.
Family gets a huge out of court settlement and I don’t spend months of pointless medical torture.
Yes, nitrogen hypoxia is untried as a method of intentional execution.
But it’s well-understood as a method of suicide, and as a way of accidentally dying.
It’s just about the most pleasant, least awful way to die. Your body is wired to detect dangerously high blood levels of CO2, not dangerously low blood levels of O2. So you breathe out CO2, breathe in pure nitrogen, and you get none of that panic feeling that you would normally get if your airway was cut off. It’s like breathing in helium from a balloon; you feel short of breath and get light headed. If it continues, you quickly pass out. IIRC, this was the method of suicide advocated by the former Hemlock Society, back in the bad old days before even Dr. Jack Kevorkian.
I ain’t sayin’ that Alabama uses the death penalty appropriately. (Yes, I support the death penalty, but not in the overwhelming majority of the cases where it’s used now.) But if you’re going to execute people, this is probably one of the most humane ways to do it.
Any unanamed “gas” in the headline will be converted to “farts” in the mind of the reader.
The Alabama governor is calling it “silent, but deadly.”
‘Well, we gon’ try it!’
