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The analogy is so stupid since the rockets fired at israel dont kill the people murdering palestinians. They kill everywhere they land.
So more fitting would be taking away the bullet proof wests of the people cowering down behind the mass shooter
Also the analogy doesn’t make sense. AOC is not saying “hey mass shooter have a bulletproof vest.” she’s saying “hey officer, why don’t you take away that mass shooter’s gun instead of their bulletproof vest?”
You’re right, but I believe what the commenter meant was “Perfect is the enemy of Good”.
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I thought they were referring to the Lemmy poster’s meaning by the context of the commentor?
I was wrong either way. Commenter in the OP is not who I thought
Thanks :))))
Something I started doing recently is anytime I see some moronic maga take on Tik tok or wherever, I’ll spam “Where are the Epstein files?” To every response. Makes me feel good that they can come up with a response to it.
That’s the correct strategy. Populism must be fought with populism. Fully fleshed out logical arguments don’t work on people that fall for “Biden did that”.
Yeah personally I don’t think Israel should have access to any more American Technology including missiles regardless of their use since they can be used offensively and they’re currently committing a genocide.
Until the Palestinians are free I think it’s pretty apt to just reject all forms of aid to Israel.
Also there’s quite a few people here defending “Zionism” which is disappointing to see.
Zionism has been described by several scholars as a form of settler colonialism in relation to the region of Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Zionism’s founders and early leaders were aware and unapologetic about their status as colonizers. Many early leading Zionists such as Theodor Herzl, Max Nordau, and Ze’ev Jabotinsky described Zionism as colonization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
It’s so astounding that the US sends aid to Israel to make sure their population has free healthcare/education, given what it looks like inside the US
We sent them $17.9 billion since Oct 2023.
That money could easily pay for United States Social Services multiple times
Wearing armor grants you the privilege to start more fights. Israel’s incentives for diplomacy are minimal and they exert their will unto others due to a lack of consequences.
I’m about to be shit on as a Zionist for defending the death of innocent children, but here goes:
Isreal is just as full of innocent children. They don’t deserve to die for the genocide their parents are being tricked into ignoring.
The armor is for those children. Not their parents. AOC is literally saying that defending the lives of innocents matter more than attacking genociders. When they are mixed together, you can’t target one without the other.
So yeah, the Iron Dome protects genociders, but it also protects their kids and other innocent people. It actually protects civilians and their children far more than it protects the politicians who don’t even live there.
I will support giving defensive missiles at the same time we give the Palestinians military aid to defend themselves as well. Remember, the Palestinians have just as much right to armed self defense as the Israelis. In fact, the Palestinians obviously need a lot more defensive military tech than the Israelis. I’ll support giving the Israelis defensive missiles after we’ve already given the Gazans so many that they can establish their own no fly zone over Gaza.
Obviously, if the goal is defending children, we need to start with the most vulnerable children first. We should send missile batteries to the Gazans first. After their safety is assured, then we can worry about the much richer much more powerful country.
I get your point, but my point was about Israel’s privilege to act without consequences. If their children were put at risk by their genocidal actions, they might be incentivized to, I dunno, not be genocidal psychopaths.
Imagine its the USA commiting genocide and bombing Mexico or something, and you do not support the actions of your country but your family is only alive because of the iron dome protecting you from the bombs that are just flying over your heads between these two countries.
Your family, which neither country cares about, is who AOC and other people like us are thinking of.
We are not in favor of either country-- we are on the side of humanity.
Imagine you’re in Mexico during that situation and watching people who support the US genocide feign neutrality and then claim they’re on the side of humanity.
I have been in that situation, since one of the most powerful cartels in the nation burnt down my home resulting in the death of my older sister.
The problem with such conflicts is that there’s no clear simple solution because the perpetrators (in my case and Gaza) feed off immense amounts of American weapons and money, both political, corporate, and dark.
It takes a lot of imperfect efforts to starve the beast, and MTG is not gonna offer any such opportunities.
They are able to be belligerent and put their population at little risk because of the funding the US provides. It goes both ways. The narrative is so baked into our politics that it’s incredibly difficult to divorce from the idea of providing non offensive aide as well.
The Knesset doesn’t magically have broad support for continuing the genocide out of thin air. The US is accountable for all the terror we have wrought too, especially if our “accountable” politicians can vote for things like this and try to spin justification for it.
I understand what you’re saying, and I agree with the intent, but I don’t agree with it. If the people of Israel have to face consequences for their actions, they might take a stand and force their government to stop. They aren’t innocent until they’re doing what they can to force a cessation of the violence. As long as they feel safe they won’t feel the pressure to stand up. I don’t like it when people die, but I also recognize that sometimes it can save lives in the long-term.
A 6 month old baby who has no control over being born in Israel literally can’t do anything to help the cessation of violence. The elderly, disabled, ill, or abused, literally can’t do anything to help the cessation of violence.
There are a lot of people that have no ways or means to do anything to stop what Israel is doing. They are just stuck there.
So I don’t think their deaths should be viewed as a necessity to stop this conflict just because Israel is hiding behind them.
A 6 month old baby who has no control over being born in Israel literally can’t do anything to help the cessation of violence.
A 6 month old baby in Gaza is very likely to die of starvation or in a bombing. I don’t see you giving a shit.
I give just as much of a shit. Being on the side of humanity is not hard to understand. Innocent lives should be protected. Period. They literally have no control over their nationality, and it’s childish to believe they do.
Why isnt there an iron dome on the Palestinian side if she really thinks the lives of the innocent are so damn precious? It’s great they want to protect the children of the oppressors, but not the ones being attacked unprovoked? What’s stopping them from stepping up for the actual casualties?
Wow, so much humanity.
Fucking hypocrites always trying to do a mental gymnastic to justify their crimes against humanity.
But whatever makes you sleep better at night.
besides that.
If we don’t help them finances the iron dome, they’ll have to pay for it themselves, taking away of their genocidal project. although they will probably cut other services like free education or free healthcare. genociders dont deserve nice things.
Yup, they’ll screw their population out of services before they give up their colonial conquests.
Fuck Caitlin Johnstone. Up with AOC.
What happened to the harm reduction?
we must send aid to nazi Germany, yhea, they are doing a holocaust, but this aid will not go directly towards their holocaust, it will only help them save funds in aid so they can fund Auschwitz.
see the logic?
it ain’t harm reduction, Israel can afford the Iron dome, any help towards their Iron dome helps finance other projects like their free healthcare, free education, and free death camps for brown people.
if a country has better living conditions that the US that country should send AID to the third world country that is the US, not the other way round.
AOC has been bought by the Zios.
She literally just said we should take away their offensive weapons. How on earth does that equal “being bought” by Israel?
Because she doesn’t place Palestinians and Israelis on equal moral footing. Fundamentally, she doesn’t believe they both have an equal claim to humanity. This is obvious because she is proposing giving defensive missiles to the Israelis, but not to the Palestinians, who objectively are at much, much greater need of defensive military aid.
You cannot truly believe both Palestinians and Israelis are equally human unless you recognize they both have an equal right of armed self defense. The Gazans have just as much right to kill in self defense as the Israelis do.
People just can’t handle the fact that sometimes people who are generally good can be really really wrong and need to come to with dumbass conspiracies to explain it.
It’s actually identical to why there’s so many stupid conspiracy theories about everything. People can’t handle the idea that the world is chaos
“really really wrong” is also an overstatement on a post that acknowledges and calls for and end to the genocide?
Of course she’s against the genocide. I don’t believe she’s suddenly “tHe EnEmY” or whatever. But I do firmly believe that this vote was a complete mistake, as do many others. And being vocal about that is kind of our civic duty.
She is still defending sending the millions of dollars for a defensive capabilities. Defensive capabilities that allow them to attack everyone around them with impunity.
- Edit* also note if we send them money for defenses that means they can spend more money on offensive weapons. Sending any money to a genocidal Nation no matter what you say it’s for is still funding that genocide.
So if Trump was causing conflicts that put all people in the US at risk, the innocent people who stand against the atrocities should die because we all live under a corrupt leader?
Yeah pretty much. It’s a democracy. You’re responsible for your leaders. Do people not understand that? What you think you have no responsibility after you cast your ballot?
Now do note that wasn’t even the scenario we were talking about, you just pulled this out of your ass. The question was should someone from an entirely different Nation give the genocidal Nation money to defend themselves against the victims of their genocidal attacks. Which is a weird thing to defend I think. This is a nation that literally murders babies for fun and entertainment and you’re giving them a free suit of armor as if that doesn’t make you culpable I don’t understand it. How can someone abrogate that much responsibility? It’s just disgusting.
How is it different? There are plenty of Israelis who condemn Netanyahu and his atrocities. They should be killed because they were born in the wrong nation and more of their neighbors supported this leader?
Netanyahu’s favorably rating is below Trump’s. It’s a fair equivalence.
Condemning all Israelis for the actions of Netanyahu is no different than condemning all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas.
How is it different? There are plenty of Israelis who condemn Netanyahu and his atrocities. They should be killed because they were born in the wrong nation and more of their neighbors supported this leader?
I agree. We should give the Israelis defensive missiles. But only after we’ve given the Gazans enough military aid to protect their own skies against incursion by the Israelis. After all, the Gazans are clearly the ones in much objectively greater need. We only have so many missiles to give. We need to give them to those with the greatest need. Once the Gazans are well defended, then we can worry about providing aid to the wealthy country.
Oh absolutely. We should be leveraging Israel’s aid to ensure compliance for Palestinian aid delivery and maintaining safe routes.
What do you mean how’s it different? You’ve changed the entire question. I say again this is someone from a separate country sending money to the genocidal country. It’s not the same at all. Arguably it’s even worse.
Again though yes. How are you not getting that? It’s your government. You’re responsible for what your government does. It’s not a feudal Lord. You voted for this. That’s what democracy means. Rule of the people. The people are responsible. If you’re genocidal government is committing genocide then you need to stop them. That’s your job. The arrogance of thinking you should be immune to the horrible actions of your nation is amazing to me.
Also I don’t know where all this imaginary pacifist Israelis opposition is coming from. Polls Have consistently shown massive support for genocidal actions. Just a little over a month ago there was a poll released that said 82% of Israelis supported the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. Sidebar that’s called genocide. They’re not victims.
So according to your transitive logic, Palestinians are all responsible for the kidnappings and murders by Hamas? All Russians are responsible for Putin’s actions? All Salvadorans for Bukele?
It’s that kind of black and white justification that will perpetuate the slaughter of innocent people. You should really consider that the Geneva Convention and The Rome Statute identify civilians as a protected group for a reason.
It’s not really the same I’d say. If you live in Israel, I feel like you can easily move elsewhere. Not sure, just me spitballing that many countries would be ok with them being granted asylum.
You say that like it’s as simple as a choice. I’m in the US. I do not want to live in the US. I do not have the means to move out of the US. To be eligible for asylum, you need to prove that your life is threatened by staying in your resident nation.
I voted against Trump three times, lobby my congresspeople, and am an activist against the atrocities of this administration. Does that make me complicit in Trump’s actions? If so, how do you justify that?
I honestly wonder the population of the people in Israel for and against the war. Because, the origins of Israel is kinda rooted in Zionism and if you live there then you have to serve in the army doing whatever they make you do. But it always seemed like to me that whoever lives in Israel is totally fine with everything going on or just grit and deal with it but not taking too much action.
If you’re in the US, you can also easily move elsewhere. The problem is not whether its legally possible or materially feasible, but whether it’s ethical to force people to do so.
No she said “I am in favor of giving them free interceptors so their victims cannot retaliate.”
“Killing children is ok as long as they’re Israeli.”
You’re showing your hand a little too much. You’re supposed to pretend to take the high road so that progressives feel they can’t make a difference and fascists win by default. Don’t forget your mission.
Do you have a source? I can only find evidence to the contrary.
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez rejects all funding, donations, and support from by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). In fact, Rep. Ocasio-Cortez has labeled AIPAC as an "extremist organization that destabilizes US democracy.”
https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/alexandria-ocasio-cortez/summary?cid=N00041162
Anyone who uses “zios” unironically is almost always an actual anti-semite.
Just fyi but most Zios, especially in the US, are in fact evangelical Christians who worship Israel instead of Jesus.
See Ted Cruz being interviewed by Tucker Carlson
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