I feel like trying to frame men’s mental health issues as a problem caused exclusively by “the patriarchy and capitalism” seems like it’s trying to wash the rest of society of their own personal responsibility to contribute to making the world a better place for everyone. Patriarchy and Capitalism are just tools of the greater power structure of society, which we all have a hand in forming and perpetuating.
And let’s not pretend that the feminist movement’s tendency to pump out and empower misandrists and misandrist thinking isn’t going to have a negative impact men’s mental health, especially if we continue to hold feminism as a scared cow beyond reproach or criticism. And let’s not pretend the fact that we have the explicitly female coded “feminism” that opposes the explicitly coded “patriarchy” isn’t going to give people who don’t have a lot of time to philosophise an inherently combative view of the feminism.
It’s hard to buy into the whole “actually femismim is for anyone who wants equality” shtick when you’re working exhaustive jobs most your life and then you get exposed to the kind of feminist who says men might as well go extinct because they have sperm banks now.
Pretty much every problem we have in modern society stems from patriarchy and capitalism. It is the wrong tool for the job. Hang on… let me hammer in this screw real quick. It might damage the porch I’m building, but it’ll work I guess.
I don’t think this engages with the topic of men suffering under patriarchy.
Many men in society are deeply unhappy, in large part (i would argue) because they fail to live up to masculine stereotypes. Telling men who have shitty jobs, no friends, and no dating life that their problems are their own fault solves absolutely nothing and at worst further isolates and radicalizes them. Men suffer under the patriarchy too, and those who suffer most do not have the power to dismantle it.
I understand that telling people to be kind and compassionate towards people who perpetuate their oppression can come across as insulting but I genuinely think it is necessary. We cannot solve our problems simply by pointing fingers.
Just because patriarchy primarily benefits men, it doesn’t mean it’s all their fault. That said, it’s important to note that they stand to gain the most, meaning to get to the source you must identify and address those men than support it directly and out in the open.
You could say the same for capitalism. It mostly benefits those with capital, but literally everyone still struggles under such an economic system due to it’s core tenets of sacrificing personal well being and exploiting labor for maximizing profits.
Same goes for white supremacy. It mostly benefits white people, but it absolutely impacts them negatively, as well. Scholars will still tell you that white supremacy is defended and perpetuated by nonwhite people but the ones with the most power to defend and maintain systemic policies are typically going to be white (or funded by white people).
I don’t know how you dismantle a system without addressing it directly and understanding who it’s supporters are.
Pointing fingers is a necessary step in identifying the problem, and the problem is the system itself and the people who run it. You can’t have infinite growth in a finite system. It’s not logical, let alone possible. And since we are living in a patriarchy, yeah, I’m pointing fingers. It’s not men individually that are the problem. They are subject to the same stereotypical gender roles as women. It’s the archaic idea that men have to be the bread winners and protectors while the women stay home and pop out kids. It’s great for the economy after all.
The American Dream died when Reagan was elected, but for some reason, it’s still dangled like a carrot. The patriarchal society started when organized religion became a thing. The big 3 religions are patriarchal by nature. It’s written in doctrine. They have a lot of influence in politics. Christianity specifically. God said, “take of the earth. Go forth and multiply.” See? Capitalism is written into the very foundational teachings Christianity, a patriarchal religion, with more than their fair share of political influence. It’s too much stress for the human psyche to handle, and now there is a nation of people struggling to live up to standards that are complete nonsensical fairy tales. Not a good thing for mental health.
Patriarchal Capitalism had its run. Now the world is burning and flooding at the same time. It’s a failed system.
I generally agree with what you’re saying. Identifying who is perpetuating these issues is important, but I would argue understanding why they perpetuate them is more important. Patriarchy IS a problem, late stage capitalism IS a problem. But simply identifying those problems solves nothing. More important and interesting questions to me are: Why does the patriarchy exist and how can we dismantle it? And is there an alternative to capitalism and how to we implement it?
As much as I hate capitalism I have yet to hear a single viable alternative, I only hear how bad it is. Personally I think capitalism has incredible benefits for society and with regulation and an all encompassing social safety net is a ‘fine’ system.
Except that since our world is not infinite, capitalism will be the end of it. Corporate control and ownership of the country is what needs to end. Trickle down economics are a lie that just sucks the wealth out of our economy and puts it in the pockets of the wealthy elite. Because of this, our children will suffer the consequences for the rest of their lives, and their kids, and their kids, until there are no more natural resources, no more middle class, and no more breathable oxygen.
The only way to stop it is by taxing corporations at least 70% and shifting the control of these corporations to the state, completely outlaw all religious influence in politics, and redistribute the wealth back into the economy with monthly stimulus checks to all adult citizens. The taxes on corporations would be more than enough to pay for universal Healthcare, food for the poor, housing for the homeless, and free education.
So, either we need a modernized version of communism with protections in place for the populous, or we continue with capitalism and increase funding to social programs. That will never happen under our current system, so we are doomed.
Let’s be real. The Patriarchal Tier have agreed to commit global suicide because it’s time for women to take over via the Astronomically measured Yin Yang of LIFE. Men in Charge are refusing to hand over control and oil is the tool of murdering everyone. We’re all suckers of their infliction of death itself: OIL. Deadlier a Deity than even Mushrooms. Mushrooms have a choice. Oil will murder everyone.
What I’m really saying is that it’s NOT a failed system. It is committing the act it was subscribed to for exactly what it causes. Suicide and nothing else.
Make’s OP’s point the best description of what I’ve seen yet.
So you’re saying the conditions exist where men in their workaday lives don’t have the time or bandwidth to be aware of the positive messages in feminism, meanwhile radical and controversial feminist messages are put on blast so that everyone knows about that?
If you actually care about dismantling toxic masculinity you’d actually take the time to understand men when they do speak out about the things that bother them, instead of trying to turn it around on these men being too ignorant because they don’t have the privilege we do to ruminate on society like we can.
Maybe if feminism could do more in their social circles to shut down feminist misandry before it becomes an issue for men, instead of reinforcing toxic masculinity by insisting men should just shut up and deal with it, then these men who are “trapped in the system” wouldn’t have these problems with feminism to begin with.
But I suppose as long as we can reaffirm our own perception of superiority towards these lower beings then we’ll be fine. Most of the male feminists I see are dudes who are comparatively well off to the average working man, and I don’t think that’s just random chance. It’s easy to be a male feminist when you are in the privileged position to philosophise, but I don’t think it’s fair to just expect men in disadvantaged positions in life to just eat the same blows we can shrug off.
I think you’re confusing ‘patriarchy’ with men in-general.
Of course it’s not men’s fault that society is failing them, but that doesn’t mean patriarchy isn’t a part of the systemic problem.
A big part of the suffering of working class men is inescapably about our material conditions, and the way in which society reinforces those conditions through gender roles. We can both have sympathy for those disenfranchised men and recognize the problem and where it lies.
Fuck off with that “they’re too poor to think” shit. I’m a working class male feminist and I find that patronization to be more insulting than anything else you’re alluding to. They’re shaped and insulated from realizing who their true oppresors are but they still have agency.
I feel like trying to frame men’s mental health issues as a problem caused exclusively by “the patriarchy and capitalism” seems like it’s trying to wash the rest of society of their own personal responsibility to contribute to making the world a better place for everyone. Patriarchy and Capitalism are just tools of the greater power structure of society, which we all have a hand in forming and perpetuating.
And let’s not pretend that the feminist movement’s tendency to pump out and empower misandrists and misandrist thinking isn’t going to have a negative impact men’s mental health, especially if we continue to hold feminism as a scared cow beyond reproach or criticism. And let’s not pretend the fact that we have the explicitly female coded “feminism” that opposes the explicitly coded “patriarchy” isn’t going to give people who don’t have a lot of time to philosophise an inherently combative view of the feminism.
It’s hard to buy into the whole “actually femismim is for anyone who wants equality” shtick when you’re working exhaustive jobs most your life and then you get exposed to the kind of feminist who says men might as well go extinct because they have sperm banks now.
Pretty much every problem we have in modern society stems from patriarchy and capitalism. It is the wrong tool for the job. Hang on… let me hammer in this screw real quick. It might damage the porch I’m building, but it’ll work I guess.
I don’t think this engages with the topic of men suffering under patriarchy.
Many men in society are deeply unhappy, in large part (i would argue) because they fail to live up to masculine stereotypes. Telling men who have shitty jobs, no friends, and no dating life that their problems are their own fault solves absolutely nothing and at worst further isolates and radicalizes them. Men suffer under the patriarchy too, and those who suffer most do not have the power to dismantle it.
I understand that telling people to be kind and compassionate towards people who perpetuate their oppression can come across as insulting but I genuinely think it is necessary. We cannot solve our problems simply by pointing fingers.
Just because patriarchy primarily benefits men, it doesn’t mean it’s all their fault. That said, it’s important to note that they stand to gain the most, meaning to get to the source you must identify and address those men than support it directly and out in the open.
You could say the same for capitalism. It mostly benefits those with capital, but literally everyone still struggles under such an economic system due to it’s core tenets of sacrificing personal well being and exploiting labor for maximizing profits.
Same goes for white supremacy. It mostly benefits white people, but it absolutely impacts them negatively, as well. Scholars will still tell you that white supremacy is defended and perpetuated by nonwhite people but the ones with the most power to defend and maintain systemic policies are typically going to be white (or funded by white people).
I don’t know how you dismantle a system without addressing it directly and understanding who it’s supporters are.
Pointing fingers is a necessary step in identifying the problem, and the problem is the system itself and the people who run it. You can’t have infinite growth in a finite system. It’s not logical, let alone possible. And since we are living in a patriarchy, yeah, I’m pointing fingers. It’s not men individually that are the problem. They are subject to the same stereotypical gender roles as women. It’s the archaic idea that men have to be the bread winners and protectors while the women stay home and pop out kids. It’s great for the economy after all.
The American Dream died when Reagan was elected, but for some reason, it’s still dangled like a carrot. The patriarchal society started when organized religion became a thing. The big 3 religions are patriarchal by nature. It’s written in doctrine. They have a lot of influence in politics. Christianity specifically. God said, “take of the earth. Go forth and multiply.” See? Capitalism is written into the very foundational teachings Christianity, a patriarchal religion, with more than their fair share of political influence. It’s too much stress for the human psyche to handle, and now there is a nation of people struggling to live up to standards that are complete nonsensical fairy tales. Not a good thing for mental health.
Patriarchal Capitalism had its run. Now the world is burning and flooding at the same time. It’s a failed system.
I generally agree with what you’re saying. Identifying who is perpetuating these issues is important, but I would argue understanding why they perpetuate them is more important. Patriarchy IS a problem, late stage capitalism IS a problem. But simply identifying those problems solves nothing. More important and interesting questions to me are: Why does the patriarchy exist and how can we dismantle it? And is there an alternative to capitalism and how to we implement it?
As much as I hate capitalism I have yet to hear a single viable alternative, I only hear how bad it is. Personally I think capitalism has incredible benefits for society and with regulation and an all encompassing social safety net is a ‘fine’ system.
Except that since our world is not infinite, capitalism will be the end of it. Corporate control and ownership of the country is what needs to end. Trickle down economics are a lie that just sucks the wealth out of our economy and puts it in the pockets of the wealthy elite. Because of this, our children will suffer the consequences for the rest of their lives, and their kids, and their kids, until there are no more natural resources, no more middle class, and no more breathable oxygen.
The only way to stop it is by taxing corporations at least 70% and shifting the control of these corporations to the state, completely outlaw all religious influence in politics, and redistribute the wealth back into the economy with monthly stimulus checks to all adult citizens. The taxes on corporations would be more than enough to pay for universal Healthcare, food for the poor, housing for the homeless, and free education.
So, either we need a modernized version of communism with protections in place for the populous, or we continue with capitalism and increase funding to social programs. That will never happen under our current system, so we are doomed.
Let’s be real. The Patriarchal Tier have agreed to commit global suicide because it’s time for women to take over via the Astronomically measured Yin Yang of LIFE. Men in Charge are refusing to hand over control and oil is the tool of murdering everyone. We’re all suckers of their infliction of death itself: OIL. Deadlier a Deity than even Mushrooms. Mushrooms have a choice. Oil will murder everyone.
What I’m really saying is that it’s NOT a failed system. It is committing the act it was subscribed to for exactly what it causes. Suicide and nothing else.
Make’s OP’s point the best description of what I’ve seen yet.
Thats a gross overgeneralisation
Yeah, they conveniently forgot to mention white supremacy.
Now, that’s like the trifecta of real 'merican values, right there - capitalism, patriarchy, and white supremacy.
So you’re saying the conditions exist where men in their workaday lives don’t have the time or bandwidth to be aware of the positive messages in feminism, meanwhile radical and controversial feminist messages are put on blast so that everyone knows about that?
Brother, you are soooo close.
I’m saying it doesn’t matter in function.
If you actually care about dismantling toxic masculinity you’d actually take the time to understand men when they do speak out about the things that bother them, instead of trying to turn it around on these men being too ignorant because they don’t have the privilege we do to ruminate on society like we can.
Maybe if feminism could do more in their social circles to shut down feminist misandry before it becomes an issue for men, instead of reinforcing toxic masculinity by insisting men should just shut up and deal with it, then these men who are “trapped in the system” wouldn’t have these problems with feminism to begin with.
But I suppose as long as we can reaffirm our own perception of superiority towards these lower beings then we’ll be fine. Most of the male feminists I see are dudes who are comparatively well off to the average working man, and I don’t think that’s just random chance. It’s easy to be a male feminist when you are in the privileged position to philosophise, but I don’t think it’s fair to just expect men in disadvantaged positions in life to just eat the same blows we can shrug off.
I think you’re confusing ‘patriarchy’ with men in-general.
Of course it’s not men’s fault that society is failing them, but that doesn’t mean patriarchy isn’t a part of the systemic problem.
A big part of the suffering of working class men is inescapably about our material conditions, and the way in which society reinforces those conditions through gender roles. We can both have sympathy for those disenfranchised men and recognize the problem and where it lies.
Fuck off with that “they’re too poor to think” shit. I’m a working class male feminist and I find that patronization to be more insulting than anything else you’re alluding to. They’re shaped and insulated from realizing who their true oppresors are but they still have agency.
I am also working class and I understand that even in the same class circumstances can be vastly different.