It’s such a touchy subject because feminism definitely came about as a response to toxic masculine behaviors that have been around and are still with us. And while capitalism/toxic masculinity is to blame for most of men’s mental health problems, at the same time, I think there’s still been something of an overreach with feminism and there’s actually some aspects of Western life where women are at a definite advantage, namely in the Court systems when dealing with divorce and custody issues. Men and women in these spaces are not treated equally and it’s just accepted as “That’s how it is,” because we’re ok with going off of outdated ideas in that space.
Having said all that, I still don’t think it’s fair to blame feminism for men’s mental health issues, it’s more just a societal thing that men in general are really considered expendable and left to fend for themselves on most of their problems. While I think it’s gotten better over the years and it’s more acceptable to at least talk about some things, there’s still just a general apathetic attitude towards men’s mental health issues. Men/Fathers will often be relied on by everybody else in the family for all sorts of things, but who does Dad have to turn to when he has problems? Mothers are often placed on a pedestal, and that’s great for them, fathers though are just kind of… “Oh, it’s you.”
I agree with you fully. I am a feminist, and I absolutely agree that certain portions of our community has been co-opted by toxicity.
Yes, it sucks to be a woman, especially if you live in a region where you’ve lost access to your bodily autonomy, because that is the barest of basics for rights. It sucks getting paid less. It sucks having to maintain a job, maintain the household, be the responsible parent for getting kids to/from school/practice/clubs, etc. It sucks being the spouse that’s EXPECTED to stay home and forgo their career/dreams if a dual income household doesn’t make sense (childcare costs eat up a spousal income). It sucks being the sex that is more likely to end up abused/murdered/raped.
I hear all that. But I do believe that mainstream feminism has DEFINITELY crossed the lines in certain aspects.
I don’t think it’s necessary to jump all over a man’s comment when he says “I’ve never beat a spouse/I help out around the house” and reply with silly things like “nOt AlL mEn” and shit like that. It makes people feel unheard and undervalued. And if people feel unheard/undervalued, they are going to gravitate to where they do feel valued and heard.
That’s how we end up with manosphere bullshit saying things like “A woman’s pleasure isn’t necessary, but a man can’t think straight without it. It’s her role to keep you satisfied and fuck anyone else who says otherwise.”
“Looksmaxxing” is something that I’m also REALLY fearful of our younger male generations getting into, because it stems from “You wanna get laid? You gotta be hot or a woman will NEVER choose you. This is how you get hot.” And then it leads young men to picking themselves (and each other) apart physically to a really harmful level.
Ughhhh, I know I’m saying a lot here, but it’s because I do believe that certain traits of current day radical feminism are driving more and more youth to the Andrew Tates of the world, and that makes me terrified for our younger girls growing up alongside them, and how they’re going to be treated.
Women couldn’t get their own bank accounts in the US until 1970, radical feminism was necessary. But today, we have to make sure men feel comfortable talking to us/being supported by us/delving into their hopes and dreams without being like “Okay but it’s worse to be a lady”.
Very much agree with everything you said. As a man, having the patriarchy be framed as something that is harmful to men as well as women was a sort of revelation to me. When you’re depressed and have low self esteem it can be difficult to be accepting towards messaging that frames you as the bad guy.
It has taken me years to start to process white & male privilege as something independent of me, something that can be examined and acknowledged without destroying what little self worth I had. Coming to terms with my own identity and privilege has been (and continues), to be a long, difficult, and life changing process. I wish more people had empathy and understanding for that.
Even saying what I’ve just said feels a bit taboo. I can imagine many marginalized folks reading this and rolling their eyes saying “that must be so hard for you”. And I totally sympathize with that sentiment, I just don’t think it solves anything.
Bruh, I don’t think anything you said was “taboo” at all. Recognizing where our privileges and biases lie is the first step to becoming a better human being overall and its hard. I myself had to really look inward and recognize all the white privilege I’ve had growing up/still have today, and I grew up in a household with extremely racist/misogynist/bigoted/xenophobic views.
I can’t imagine having to tack on male privilege as well. You’re doing the work my dude. We’re all one step closer to truly seeing the actual human being in one another and uplifting one another every time someone does it.
And yeah, the patriarchy is a fucked up world to live in. Even not being male, a lot of us can see how twisted and reductionist it is to be told you’re supposed to want/need sex on a regular basis and that’s all you’re supposed to think about/cant control your urges, you’re not supposed to feel any emotion outside of anger so bottle that the fuck up, you’re always supposed to be the “provider” and fuck you if you can’t due to mental/physical health issues, and there are passions and pursuits you’re never supposed to have/desire because it’s just not “manly”.
Ugh, I’m sure there are more that I’ve just never even considered because I’m not a dude so there are challenges there that I’ve never faced
/seen, but it doesn’t sound fucking healthy for anyone.
BUT! You also said something that I think is very important to hear: patriarchical society/white/male privilege is independent of you. It’s not your fault, and you didn’t do this. None of us “did” this. But it is up to us to challenge it when we see it, and support one another to bring one another up to the levels we’re operating at and demand better for us as a society collectively.
Wow thank you. Genuinely had a bit of an emotional moment reading this, I feel seen.
I’m sure there are more that I’ve just never even considered because I’m not a dude so there are challenges there that I’ve never faced /seen
Personally I think you covered it quite well. I think I’ve been fortunate in not having some of the more toxic expectations ingrained into me.
I grew up in a household with extremely racist/misogynist/bigoted/xenophobic views
Big ups to you for overcoming this. I was raised with all of that but very very tame and I sometimes think if I had been raised in an extremely racist household I would not be able to grow out of it.
I believe a lot of it comes from engagement-grinders constantly pushing rage-bait for clout and clicks. Gender war and revenge sells more than that hippie shit.
Oh I for sure think that rage-bait content farmers normalizing bullshit like this certainly accelerates the issues. Some of them I don’t even think realize how much they’re contributing to the downfall of society, like when Sneako was stunned when one of his younger (like 12/13 ish years old) fan said something like “Fuck women!” At a meet up. He was like “N-no. We love women!”
Of course, fuck him because it didn’t prompt him to change his content/he defended the kid, so he’s a piece of shit.
But I do wonder if any of them care/realize the psychological damage that is being done to their young fans. They’re normalizing some EXTREMELY harmful thoughts.
Also, yes, I’m very pro-hippie “EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY” shit 😂
who does Dad have to turn to when he has problems?
A big part of the slow burning men’s mental health crisis is societal expectations of men.
Boys are conditioned at a young age to start cutting off outward expressions of most emotions (big exception for anger though), stifling them and striving towards some kind of emotionless state. So they learn not to seek emotional support when they need it. And to make matters worse, this also sets these boys to grow up to be less dependable as providers of emotional support.
So men start to rely on the women in their life for emotional support, which creates unhealthy dynamics for many men who don’t have reliable women in their life, or forces them to depend exclusively on a wife for emotional support. Only having that one person, or zero people, in their lives that can provide emotional support is highly limiting, and can go wrong in all sorts of different ways.
Deep bonds in male friendship are important, but we’re raised without the guidance and skills to build and foster those bonds. And those friendships can inform how to have healthy platonic friendships with women, and how to have healthy romantic and sexual relationships with women, too.
That’s what toxic masculinity means to me: a societal expectation that men behave a particular way, and the negative consequences directly for those men and indirectly for the other people in their own lives, whether parents, siblings, spouses, friends, or children. We owe the younger men in our lives the opportunity to break that cycle and model what healthy behavior and emotions look like, so that they’re not carrying their own baggage into adulthood, middle age, and beyond.
Any time I’ve attempted to be “vulnerable” its ended badly, as have friends that have tried the same thing. Women talk a big talk about opening up, but the last thing they want is a man that can’t handle his own problems. Emotional support only goes one way from what I can tell.
Yes, that’s part of the societal expectations and conditioning that I’m talking about. Men are told to keep their emotions completely hidden by most people around them.
the last thing they want is a man that can’t handle his own problems.
It even sounds like you’re describing one of the things I was alluding to in my comment, that it’s stifling for heterosexual relationships when the man can only unload emotional burdens on their partner and nobody else. It’s a burden on both sides when that happens, and men need emotional outlets through diverse relationships in their lives with friends, family members, and their significant other.
I’m sorry that’s been your experience. I hope you find someone mature enough to handle the fact that men are humans and humans have feelings. It’s garbage that you’re held to these unrealistic standards.
The maternal advantage in family court is misunderstood. The vast majority of custody agreements are negotiated between the parents. So while there is a societal pressure to favor mothers, this is mostly a phenomena of parents hewing to that norm and not the government imposing it from above.
It may be true that a divorced mother or a lady felon enjoy some benefit from patriarchal ideals and norms. This is far outweighed by the harm patriarchy does to women (and men).
If you look at the “nurturing mother” norm in our legal system holistically, I think you’ll find that it burdens mothers with extra duties and responsibilities while stripping them of rights.
I feel like its safe (adjacent) to say that everyone is hurt, and the comparison of those hurts is counterproductive.
In cases where parental agreements aren’t worked out, a bias toward the mother is unfair. Any added burden to mothers while stripping them of rights is also not ok. To take it to a huge extreme: both men and women get raped. Men are mocked if they come forward and women are dismissed or worse. These are both wrong things. Deciding which is more wrong is distracting from the actual wrong thing: the fact that they were harmed in the first place and the authorities don’t take them seriously.
It’s such a touchy subject because feminism definitely came about as a response to toxic masculine behaviors that have been around and are still with us. And while capitalism/toxic masculinity is to blame for most of men’s mental health problems, at the same time, I think there’s still been something of an overreach with feminism and there’s actually some aspects of Western life where women are at a definite advantage, namely in the Court systems when dealing with divorce and custody issues. Men and women in these spaces are not treated equally and it’s just accepted as “That’s how it is,” because we’re ok with going off of outdated ideas in that space.
Having said all that, I still don’t think it’s fair to blame feminism for men’s mental health issues, it’s more just a societal thing that men in general are really considered expendable and left to fend for themselves on most of their problems. While I think it’s gotten better over the years and it’s more acceptable to at least talk about some things, there’s still just a general apathetic attitude towards men’s mental health issues. Men/Fathers will often be relied on by everybody else in the family for all sorts of things, but who does Dad have to turn to when he has problems? Mothers are often placed on a pedestal, and that’s great for them, fathers though are just kind of… “Oh, it’s you.”
I agree with you fully. I am a feminist, and I absolutely agree that certain portions of our community has been co-opted by toxicity.
Yes, it sucks to be a woman, especially if you live in a region where you’ve lost access to your bodily autonomy, because that is the barest of basics for rights. It sucks getting paid less. It sucks having to maintain a job, maintain the household, be the responsible parent for getting kids to/from school/practice/clubs, etc. It sucks being the spouse that’s EXPECTED to stay home and forgo their career/dreams if a dual income household doesn’t make sense (childcare costs eat up a spousal income). It sucks being the sex that is more likely to end up abused/murdered/raped.
I hear all that. But I do believe that mainstream feminism has DEFINITELY crossed the lines in certain aspects.
I don’t think it’s necessary to jump all over a man’s comment when he says “I’ve never beat a spouse/I help out around the house” and reply with silly things like “nOt AlL mEn” and shit like that. It makes people feel unheard and undervalued. And if people feel unheard/undervalued, they are going to gravitate to where they do feel valued and heard.
That’s how we end up with manosphere bullshit saying things like “A woman’s pleasure isn’t necessary, but a man can’t think straight without it. It’s her role to keep you satisfied and fuck anyone else who says otherwise.”
“Looksmaxxing” is something that I’m also REALLY fearful of our younger male generations getting into, because it stems from “You wanna get laid? You gotta be hot or a woman will NEVER choose you. This is how you get hot.” And then it leads young men to picking themselves (and each other) apart physically to a really harmful level.
Ughhhh, I know I’m saying a lot here, but it’s because I do believe that certain traits of current day radical feminism are driving more and more youth to the Andrew Tates of the world, and that makes me terrified for our younger girls growing up alongside them, and how they’re going to be treated.
Women couldn’t get their own bank accounts in the US until 1970, radical feminism was necessary. But today, we have to make sure men feel comfortable talking to us/being supported by us/delving into their hopes and dreams without being like “Okay but it’s worse to be a lady”.
We have to support each other.
Very much agree with everything you said. As a man, having the patriarchy be framed as something that is harmful to men as well as women was a sort of revelation to me. When you’re depressed and have low self esteem it can be difficult to be accepting towards messaging that frames you as the bad guy.
It has taken me years to start to process white & male privilege as something independent of me, something that can be examined and acknowledged without destroying what little self worth I had. Coming to terms with my own identity and privilege has been (and continues), to be a long, difficult, and life changing process. I wish more people had empathy and understanding for that.
Even saying what I’ve just said feels a bit taboo. I can imagine many marginalized folks reading this and rolling their eyes saying “that must be so hard for you”. And I totally sympathize with that sentiment, I just don’t think it solves anything.
Bruh, I don’t think anything you said was “taboo” at all. Recognizing where our privileges and biases lie is the first step to becoming a better human being overall and its hard. I myself had to really look inward and recognize all the white privilege I’ve had growing up/still have today, and I grew up in a household with extremely racist/misogynist/bigoted/xenophobic views.
I can’t imagine having to tack on male privilege as well. You’re doing the work my dude. We’re all one step closer to truly seeing the actual human being in one another and uplifting one another every time someone does it.
And yeah, the patriarchy is a fucked up world to live in. Even not being male, a lot of us can see how twisted and reductionist it is to be told you’re supposed to want/need sex on a regular basis and that’s all you’re supposed to think about/cant control your urges, you’re not supposed to feel any emotion outside of anger so bottle that the fuck up, you’re always supposed to be the “provider” and fuck you if you can’t due to mental/physical health issues, and there are passions and pursuits you’re never supposed to have/desire because it’s just not “manly”.
Ugh, I’m sure there are more that I’ve just never even considered because I’m not a dude so there are challenges there that I’ve never faced /seen, but it doesn’t sound fucking healthy for anyone.
BUT! You also said something that I think is very important to hear: patriarchical society/white/male privilege is independent of you. It’s not your fault, and you didn’t do this. None of us “did” this. But it is up to us to challenge it when we see it, and support one another to bring one another up to the levels we’re operating at and demand better for us as a society collectively.
Wow thank you. Genuinely had a bit of an emotional moment reading this, I feel seen.
Personally I think you covered it quite well. I think I’ve been fortunate in not having some of the more toxic expectations ingrained into me.
Big ups to you for overcoming this. I was raised with all of that but very very tame and I sometimes think if I had been raised in an extremely racist household I would not be able to grow out of it.
I believe a lot of it comes from engagement-grinders constantly pushing rage-bait for clout and clicks. Gender war and revenge sells more than that hippie shit.
Oh I for sure think that rage-bait content farmers normalizing bullshit like this certainly accelerates the issues. Some of them I don’t even think realize how much they’re contributing to the downfall of society, like when Sneako was stunned when one of his younger (like 12/13 ish years old) fan said something like “Fuck women!” At a meet up. He was like “N-no. We love women!”
Of course, fuck him because it didn’t prompt him to change his content/he defended the kid, so he’s a piece of shit.
But I do wonder if any of them care/realize the psychological damage that is being done to their young fans. They’re normalizing some EXTREMELY harmful thoughts.
Also, yes, I’m very pro-hippie “EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY” shit 😂
A big part of the slow burning men’s mental health crisis is societal expectations of men.
Boys are conditioned at a young age to start cutting off outward expressions of most emotions (big exception for anger though), stifling them and striving towards some kind of emotionless state. So they learn not to seek emotional support when they need it. And to make matters worse, this also sets these boys to grow up to be less dependable as providers of emotional support.
So men start to rely on the women in their life for emotional support, which creates unhealthy dynamics for many men who don’t have reliable women in their life, or forces them to depend exclusively on a wife for emotional support. Only having that one person, or zero people, in their lives that can provide emotional support is highly limiting, and can go wrong in all sorts of different ways.
Deep bonds in male friendship are important, but we’re raised without the guidance and skills to build and foster those bonds. And those friendships can inform how to have healthy platonic friendships with women, and how to have healthy romantic and sexual relationships with women, too.
That’s what toxic masculinity means to me: a societal expectation that men behave a particular way, and the negative consequences directly for those men and indirectly for the other people in their own lives, whether parents, siblings, spouses, friends, or children. We owe the younger men in our lives the opportunity to break that cycle and model what healthy behavior and emotions look like, so that they’re not carrying their own baggage into adulthood, middle age, and beyond.
Any time I’ve attempted to be “vulnerable” its ended badly, as have friends that have tried the same thing. Women talk a big talk about opening up, but the last thing they want is a man that can’t handle his own problems. Emotional support only goes one way from what I can tell.
Yes, that’s part of the societal expectations and conditioning that I’m talking about. Men are told to keep their emotions completely hidden by most people around them.
It even sounds like you’re describing one of the things I was alluding to in my comment, that it’s stifling for heterosexual relationships when the man can only unload emotional burdens on their partner and nobody else. It’s a burden on both sides when that happens, and men need emotional outlets through diverse relationships in their lives with friends, family members, and their significant other.
I’m sorry that’s been your experience. I hope you find someone mature enough to handle the fact that men are humans and humans have feelings. It’s garbage that you’re held to these unrealistic standards.
The maternal advantage in family court is misunderstood. The vast majority of custody agreements are negotiated between the parents. So while there is a societal pressure to favor mothers, this is mostly a phenomena of parents hewing to that norm and not the government imposing it from above.
It may be true that a divorced mother or a lady felon enjoy some benefit from patriarchal ideals and norms. This is far outweighed by the harm patriarchy does to women (and men).
If you look at the “nurturing mother” norm in our legal system holistically, I think you’ll find that it burdens mothers with extra duties and responsibilities while stripping them of rights.
I feel like its safe (adjacent) to say that everyone is hurt, and the comparison of those hurts is counterproductive.
In cases where parental agreements aren’t worked out, a bias toward the mother is unfair. Any added burden to mothers while stripping them of rights is also not ok. To take it to a huge extreme: both men and women get raped. Men are mocked if they come forward and women are dismissed or worse. These are both wrong things. Deciding which is more wrong is distracting from the actual wrong thing: the fact that they were harmed in the first place and the authorities don’t take them seriously.