I was looking through lap times of different production cars, and there are some wildly out of place cars doing ring laptimes, some cars are faster than they seem they should be, while others are slower than they should be. Which got me thinking how some cars truly get tested in showroom condition, and others get the “marketing” treatment to produce a laptime a showroom car would never touch, solely to sell more cars. Then I found this article that talks exactly about just that.

https://www.thedrive.com/porsche/11012/nurburgring-times-dont-matter

  • jcforbes@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    There’s a huge disparity in drivers, and the Ring is so long that differences get hugely exaggerated. Look at Top Gear times, even among pro drivers you had multiple seconds of disparity and that’s less than 3kms. Let’s say two drivers were 0.25 seconds different on the top gear track in the same car… That’s now nearly TWO seconds different over the distance of the ring. Not only that, but given the length of the lap it is difficult to really nail an entire lap with zero errors which leaves times more skewed.

    Then you run into weather differences, a cloud could blow over a third of the way through your lap and cost you 3 seconds over the next 2/3rds.

    There’s probably 5 seconds worth of uncontrollable variables for the same driver in the same car at different times of day let alone if we factor different cars, drivers, and not even in the same month for weather.

  • ActualCounterculture@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    It is, at the top its only Merc vs VAG showdown, if i wanted to see laptime i check the wiki and sort by Sport Auto’s time, i think its more fair that way

  • swampfox94@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    Always have been useless. Even as someone who goes to the track regularly i wouldn’t even get close to the pro times. Most consumers never even see a track let alone drive around one. Its all just marketing

    • sohcgt96@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      And not only that, different cars are going to have different gaps between pro and normal drivers based on their nature.

      Its a slightly to moderately interesting metric but anybody who considers it a factor in their purchase decision is a dope. Anything the ring time tells you could should have already been figured out elsewhere.

  • Secret_Squire1@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    I agree and disagree. The Nordschleife is a better at representing real world performance than the standard racetrack. It’s bumpy, has faults, off camber turns, and lots of elevation. It’s more like racing a Californian canyon road than Spa or Road of America.

    Yes a single lap holding the record is nothing but PR. I would want to see how a car performs over 10-15 laps to see what its real performance is. Even still it’s a meaningless metric without a complete review of the car by an auto journalist on the track.

    For instance, my GT500 is estimated to be able to perform a 7:11-7:15. It’s roughly around the same time as a 991.2 GT3. But as a novice driver, I’m more than likely able to put down a sub 8 min lap in the Porsche than my GT500.

      • wildlyinaccurate@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        10 laps of the Nordschleife is over 200 km. I can’t think of any cars with big enough fuel tanks to go full send for 200 km. Most production cars will overheat their brakes and tyres after 1-2 laps of the ring anyways.

    • rivers_to_rooftops@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      Love the GT500, but can you provide a source for saying it would pull a 7:11-7:15 lap time?

      That would be leaps and bounds faster than the lap times i’ve seen for it, which if memory serves is closer to 7:39. Manual ZL1 1LE put down a 7:16 flat, for reference.

      Fun fact, the Viper ACR holds the record still for the fastest manual transmission Ring time, as well as fastest american car time at 7:01.3!

    • Meinredditname@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      I don’t really see Spa as being all that different. Lots of elevation, mix of high and low(er) speed corners, so fairly similar. Nordschleife has lots more corners, and is bumpier, but the big difference is the length (and number of corners). A small bobble in a single corner & you’ve blown your lap. Those bumps at the Nordschleife make it so much easier to make a mistake, and all those corners give so many more opportunities for mistakes+ any one mistake will kill your lap… So, times at Nordschleife tend to favor cars that are really fast, but reliably so (or at least have big enough pocketbooks to give them enough chances at a good lap). There are some cars that are insanely fast, but more difficult to drive absolutely at the limit. They will be very hard to set a solid laptime with… it’s also rather expensive to have the ring all to yourself to go for that perfect lap, so it’s not like you get all that many attempts at it (unless you have that nice pocketbook behind you of course)

      So … I don’t think Nürburgring lap times are a great metric, but I do think they are a better metric than you’d get from lap times on a similar, but shorter, circuit. (Source: I have laptimes at Spa that I’m fairly happy with, but have yet to set a single lap at Nordschleife that I’d say is great, but Harry’s Lap Timer says I have an optimal lap to be proud of)

      • No_e92335xi_ore93@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        The point is that the nordshliefe test how the car breaks, turns (at different speeds), speeds up, at 95% which is what most street users will do. It penalizes cars that are very hard to drive and cars that are unstable over bumps and that’s very important to uses.

      • wildlyinaccurate@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        Sorry but I think Circuit de Spa is nothing like the Nordschleife. Spa has 20 turns over 7 km, 2 high speed sections, and 100 m of elevation change. It also has pretty decent run-offs. The Nordschleife has 150+ turns over 20 km, several high speed sections, 300 m of elevation change, and virtually no run-offs.

        Spa is certainly a challenging and dangerous circuit, but the Nordschleife has earned its reputation of being the most dangerous track in the world for a reason.

      • Secret_Squire1@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        On most tracks but not the Nurburgring when being compared to cars within similar power levels. The ‘ring pushes cars weights around due to the elevation changes. GT3’s really inspire confidence on the track. The GT500 scares the fuck out of you at the limit.

      • megacookie@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        But it might be somewhat easier to pull together a clean lap in a well balanced car with generally more grip than power, compared to something that wants to blow its tires out through past 4th gear and can carry way more speed on the straights making braking more tricky and critical. There’s also the matter of confidence in the car, which could be worth many seconds alone on a track as long and treacherous as the Ring.

  • Shitadviceguy@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    Almost as much as 0-60 times

    Or is it 5-60 Wait, 0-100 No, 0-60 but only from that one publication

  • banelingsbanelings@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    Its never been useless. Yes a lot of it is PR. But it gives a neutral, “scientific” datasheet in relation to that car.

    Like for example here is the 919 going through the end of section 1. And here is the Nissan GTR Nismo. You can literally feel how the Nissan is resisting to turn/yaw and more or less conclude the downsides of the AWD system. It delivers power, but feels more like work compared to an exige or mx 5, but outmatches both of them - no need to ask a journalist.

    By that logic it would also be useless to listen to Chris Harris telling you that car X handles well/meh/subpar.

    • Raalf@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      Quite sure everyone saying it’s useless is referring to a real world commute, as multiple people have stated. Same way the original volt was rated for 200+mpg - PR stats are not always useful in real life.

      Edit: was the volt, not the Prius. I get my bullshit stats confused sometimes I guess.

    • V12MPG@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      You can literally feel how the Nissan is resisting to turn/yaw and more or less conclude the downsides of the AWD system. It delivers power, but feels more like work compared to an exige or mx 5, but outmatches both of them

      How am I supposed to know all of this from looking at the lap time? This seems more like a defense of track testing than of distilling it down to a single number.

      • hi_im_bored13@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        Each record attempt comes with a video, from which you can extrapolate the above. The actual lap time itself (IMO) is largely useless, but the tools it provides are useful

        • V12MPG@alien.topBEnglish
          1·
          10 个月前

          Yeah these days you will probably get a video out of it though of course not all times are record attempts so it’s often up to the publication in question. I read the OP more as complaining about spec sheet racing.

  • Nukedogger86@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    It’s a measuring stick of performance. Much like a 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad or braking test. It just puts all of it together on a long track with a ton of varying corners and some high speed sections.

    What makes the numbers meaningless are when they mod the car outside of what’s available at the dealership in order to lay down a lap. If I recall properly, Alpha did a bunch of weight reduction, some specific suspension adjustments, and R compound tires, none of which were available from a factory order.

    • Ancient_Persimmon@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      It is a measuring stick, but unlike those other metrics, you can’t apply the same corrections for weather, so there’s going to be less consistency.

      I think it’s a good place for car development, but headline times do need a pinch of salt or so.

      • Nukedogger86@alien.topBEnglish
        1·
        10 个月前

        Another fantastic point. Some laps on record have spots of wet track which can throw away several seconds. Then of course temperature…

  • Trollygag@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    Relevant to this discussion and other performance testing -

    Tires are disposable wear items. You are supposed to replace them multiple times through the life of the car.

    A car model is not faster or better because the OEMs picked a certain tire at a certain trim or offered a different tire at a different trim. This is all equalized when you choose a tire to replace on your car either at end of life or ealier to suit your climate or driving style or whatever.

    And tires have a huge impact on performance in every dimension. One of the most dominant aspects of performance is the tire.

    This is almost never accounted for in performance testing because volume testing cars while equalizing tires costs a bunch of money, but is expected from owners.

    Putting value into ranking cars by some time metric is nonsensical without much better quality testing than you get in car rags and channels.

    • WUT_productions@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      the C&D Lighting Lap lets manufactures equip optional dealer add-ons like grippy tires. So some cars show up to the track with Cup2 Rs (technically street legal tires, available on some cars as a dealer add-on).

      I think that for example, the Supra should be tested with the more modern Pilot Sport 4S or Pilot Sport 5. It’s really traction limited with it’s older Pilot Super Sports.

    • hi_im_bored13@alien.topBEnglish
      1·
      10 个月前

      Devils advocate: a lot of these cars have custom tires developed with the tire manufacturer alongside the development of the car itself. If the manufacturer didn’t supply stickier tires, then thats on them.

  • xstreamReddit@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    More relevant than ever especially with EVs that have very different reproducibility of performance between them.

  • RustyAliien@alien.topBEnglish
    1·
    10 个月前

    Considering the driver is a major component on that track, it’s all meaningless unless every test was done by 1 driver.