if one of these crashes, wouldn’t that be considered an act of war and trigger Article 5?
Article 5 is, ultimately, triggered by action within the EU. If Europeans want to treat this as another Boeing nosedive rather than a military action, they’ll wave it away.
As it stands, Vlad has been growing support within Southern European parliaments - Italy, Greece, France, Spain - and that might make invoking Article 5 more difficult than pointing at a downed airliner and proclaiming “Russia did this”.
I’m gonna copypaste what I said in another reply to my comment (because I think it applies):
Not being in support of Ukraine is not the same as being in support of Vlad. Not at all. The only ones that MIGHT be pro Vlad, and I am not 100% sure of their position, are Vox.
There are a million reasons not to meddlr in these external affairs. Veing anti-war, our country not being precisely well economically, recognizing Ukraine is neither on NATO nor the EU, so interfering is riskier.
Global morals are all good and well, but the representatives should look for the well being of their voters, not everyone in the Globe.
Not saying they should say “fuck Ukraine”, we have received a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Spain. But that doesn’t mean we should get involved in their war.
Not being in support of Ukraine is not the same as being in support of Vlad.
I agree in theory. But, in practice, not supporting Ukraine against Russia is a bit like not supporting Biden against Trump. To use an old Bushism, “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists.”
Global morals are all good and well, but the representatives should look for the well being of their voters, not everyone in the Globe.
The counterargument in favor of supporting the Ukrainian side of the war is that Russia is an existential threat to Europe. And, to borrow another Bushism, “We need to fight them over there so we’re not fighting them over here.”
Not saying they should say “fuck Ukraine”, we have received a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Spain.
I agree here wholeheartedly. The first and foremost mission of any serious relief effort should be refugee relief and resettlement. But that’s another thing the pro-war wings of big western states tend to be against. For all their hawkishness, the British and Americans have been the most stingy when it comes to absorbing refugees. Meanwhile, the more peacenik members of the EU - your Polands and Hungarys and Romanias - are taking on the lion’s share.
Not being in support of Ukraine is not the same as being in support of Vlad. Not at all. The only ones that MIGHT be pro Vlad, and I am not 100% sure of their position, are Vox.
There are a million reasons not to meddlr in these external affairs. Veing anti-war, our country not being precisely well economically, recognizing Ukraine is neither on NATO nor the EU, so interfering is riskier.
Global morals are all good and well, but the representatives should look for the well being of their voters, not everyone in the Globe.
Not saying they should say “fuck Ukraine”, we have received a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Spain. But that doesn’t mean we should get involved in their war.
Ukraine alone can’t face Russia, nobody disagrees with that. Russia doesn’t need support to win, they only need Ukraine to not have. You can’t be really neutral if the conflict is so uneven.
Wether you like it or not, inaction is support for Russia. Right after the first attack some independents in Spain, the ones constantly asking for international sorry support, said we should not get involved in Russia’s invasion, which is ironic to say the least and very suspicious. This isn’t only Vox, a lot of the left (
I’m also not sure it’s on our best interest, economical or otherwise, to let Russia gobble up Ukraine and all it’s natural resources. Even from a completely selfish point of view, Russia controlling all of Ukraine is also risky.
Article 5 is, ultimately, triggered by action within the EU. If Europeans want to treat this as another Boeing nosedive rather than a military action, they’ll wave it away.
As it stands, Vlad has been growing support within Southern European parliaments - Italy, Greece, France, Spain - and that might make invoking Article 5 more difficult than pointing at a downed airliner and proclaiming “Russia did this”.
Yeah, in Spain not really, not sure were you get that from
Unidas Podemos has bucked the current government position and sided against NATO on a number of legislative votes.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/spanish-coalition-split-over-decision-to-deliver-weapons-to-ukraine/
I’m gonna copypaste what I said in another reply to my comment (because I think it applies):
Not being in support of Ukraine is not the same as being in support of Vlad. Not at all. The only ones that MIGHT be pro Vlad, and I am not 100% sure of their position, are Vox.
There are a million reasons not to meddlr in these external affairs. Veing anti-war, our country not being precisely well economically, recognizing Ukraine is neither on NATO nor the EU, so interfering is riskier.
Global morals are all good and well, but the representatives should look for the well being of their voters, not everyone in the Globe.
Not saying they should say “fuck Ukraine”, we have received a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Spain. But that doesn’t mean we should get involved in their war.
I agree in theory. But, in practice, not supporting Ukraine against Russia is a bit like not supporting Biden against Trump. To use an old Bushism, “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists.”
The counterargument in favor of supporting the Ukrainian side of the war is that Russia is an existential threat to Europe. And, to borrow another Bushism, “We need to fight them over there so we’re not fighting them over here.”
I agree here wholeheartedly. The first and foremost mission of any serious relief effort should be refugee relief and resettlement. But that’s another thing the pro-war wings of big western states tend to be against. For all their hawkishness, the British and Americans have been the most stingy when it comes to absorbing refugees. Meanwhile, the more peacenik members of the EU - your Polands and Hungarys and Romanias - are taking on the lion’s share.
PSOE might be in support of Ukraine, but some of it’s allies are not. That’s the only thing I can imagine.
Not being in support of Ukraine is not the same as being in support of Vlad. Not at all. The only ones that MIGHT be pro Vlad, and I am not 100% sure of their position, are Vox.
There are a million reasons not to meddlr in these external affairs. Veing anti-war, our country not being precisely well economically, recognizing Ukraine is neither on NATO nor the EU, so interfering is riskier.
Global morals are all good and well, but the representatives should look for the well being of their voters, not everyone in the Globe.
Not saying they should say “fuck Ukraine”, we have received a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Spain. But that doesn’t mean we should get involved in their war.
Ukraine alone can’t face Russia, nobody disagrees with that. Russia doesn’t need support to win, they only need Ukraine to not have. You can’t be really neutral if the conflict is so uneven.
Wether you like it or not, inaction is support for Russia. Right after the first attack some independents in Spain, the ones constantly asking for international sorry support, said we should not get involved in Russia’s invasion, which is ironic to say the least and very suspicious. This isn’t only Vox, a lot of the left (
I’m also not sure it’s on our best interest, economical or otherwise, to let Russia gobble up Ukraine and all it’s natural resources. Even from a completely selfish point of view, Russia controlling all of Ukraine is also risky.