Well, I’ll be damned. They finally won one it sounds like.
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Great! Now do Apple
It was ruled previously that Apple don’t have a large enough market share
But if they force Google to open their app store, I hope that do it for fucking everyone.
At least on Google devices you still can sideload apps, and fairly easy TBH. My biggest annoyance is the “you can’t buy stuff in apps without giving us a cut” which fucked up stuff like ebook apps etc
Yeah, the Kindle app pretty blatantly tells you why they removed in-app purchases.
In the US it does.
Yeah but they also have more rights than the consumer, rather than the other way about lol
I’m pretty sure the ruling in this post is in the US
Yes, but US favour companies over people.
I’m pretty sure the ruling in this post is in the US.
That’s why we are surprised. But given this went through, maybe they could go for it again who knows.
And it’s two companies fighting, how far did the anti monopoly pushes against apple and google get before Epic took them up because they were a profitable venture?
Which is weird because they have a larger market share than Google >.>
They have a 99% market share on iPhone though. Google has less on Android.
Who has the other 1% on iPhone?
Jailbroken I assume
…in the US
Like this case?
Which is all the US courts would be looking at.
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No they don’t.
In the US, market share of Apple is between 50-60% while Android is between 40-50%, depending on the source. Worldwide is more in favour of Android, but this is a US lawsuit.
They absolutely do. This case would only look at US market share, they don’t care about anywhere else. And why would they? Imagine a company with 10% US market share and 90% worldwide market share, would you expect US courts to deem that a monopoly?
“Sir, SIR, we are a nonprofit? Please leave or I will have to launch the facility into iFreespace and stay hovering a foot above ground for the rest of time as per the iNflanational iFukU-nion that is a slight inconvenience for anyone not part of the of the 23.000.001 iToUrPPs living aboard the ilolTax Inflationstate iLevitate CorpoHappytat KZ-23”
And consoles.
It’s not an apples to apples comparable situation. Pun intended!
Why? Just don’t buy apple.
That isn’t really relevant when it comes to holding them to a different legal standard.
And if you don’t own apple products, why would you care?
Exactly. The locked down nature is part of the Apple experience, this is what their customers are paying for
The law should still apply equally to every company, shouldn’t it?
Apple doesn’t licence out their operating system.
Didn’t Epic lose the fight against Apple? How is Google more of a monopoly than Apple? It is incredibly easy to sideload apps on Android compared to iPhones, and there are multiple dedicated unofficial stores. These verdicts are not coherent at all between them. I understand they are two separate judges, but the law should be the same for all, not at the interpretation of whichever judge you get.
Edit: for future reference, Verge answers this very question here https://www.theverge.com/24003500/epic-v-google-loss-apple-win-fortnite-trial-monopoly
EDIT: Added source from where I read it.
From some other comment I read,it apparently was due to google paying companies to set Google’s stuff as their default. Something Apple does not (have to) do.This comment by AnalogyBreaker on the article seems to explain it pretty well:
The “this doesn’t make sense” crowd are missing the point. Android is open source, anyone can use it. Google licensed it that way to spur adoption and (in theory) not solely be responsible for its development. They could make their own closed OS, kept it exclusive to Pixel phones and have a closed app store… but we can can all guess how well that would have went… not well. So the open source route makes sense.
Because Android is freely licensed to anyone, there is a market for apps that Google theoretically doesn’t control and resides on non-google produced devices. They do control Play Services, however. That’s not open source and includes proprietary apps basically essential for an operating smart phone such as Google sign in, Maps, and of course the Play Store. Google used their market dominance in those fields to prevent third parties from launching or installing competitors to the Play Store by denying Play Services to those who didn’t comply; paying them off directly or brokering sweetheart deals. That’s appears like an obvious abuse of their market position.
If Google wanted to be treated the same as Apple, they’d have to develop phones the same way as Apple. They didn’t do that, instead they rely on third parties and those third parties have protections from Google abusing their monopoly position against them. To suggest they should be treated the same as Apple is akin to wanting to have your cake and eat it too. For the record, I’m not a fan of the Apple ruling, but there are clear differences between the two cases and seeing different outcomes shouldn’t be a surprise.
There was another comparison I read using an example if Microsoft paid stores to not sell PlayStations, but I can’t find it anymore.
I guess it makes sense that google lost here, but what doesn’t seem to make sense at all, at least for me, is how on earth apple won when on their platform you literally have no other option than to use apples stuff.
If I had to guess, probably for the same reason you can’t sue for not being able to pick what apps you install on your toaster.
Google probably opened themselves up to this monopoly shit by trying not to be as much of a monopoly as Apple is trying to be.
I’ve heard a lot of lawyers say that the law punishes virtually every good behavior because that behavior can be construed in a way that you can be sued for, and that it favors being a dick more than anything. In this case, that might be what happened?
I mean, not that Google is a saint at all.
That is seventeen flavors of idiotic in one sickly smartphone sundae
Law is hell on earth, and lawyers are devils.
Lawyers are bad, but I’m starting to think Judges can easily be worse. You get the ‘wrong’ judge assigned to your case and you’re done. Increasing political polarization in every aspect of life is highlighting how biased these people remain.
Isn’t a judge just an ascended/evolved lawyer?
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True, but that’s more about the relationship between Google and phone manufacturers and and carriers. As far as a party like Epic is concerned, it shouldn’t have any relation. As far as epic goes, they’re only affected by the opt in process to install apks, and apps not being allowed to install apps (which I hope has a way more complicated opt in process if it’s allowed or malware will be rampant among casual users)
Yeah, it seems Google is way more open to side loading and fdroid existing. Not sure how Apple got away with it when they are so much more restrictive.
Can this ruling be used in the future against Apple?
But Epic v. Google turned out to be a very different case. It hinged on secret revenue sharing deals between Google, smartphone makers, and big game developers, ones that Google execs internally believed were designed to keep rival app stores down. It showed that Google was running scared of Epic specifically. And it was all decided by a jury, unlike the Apple ruling.
From the article. It appears they had receipts that Epic was specifically and intentionally harmed here
Apple has such deals. The difference is that they weren’t caught.
The difference is that Apple is so vertically integrated, they can say that the existence of Android as an option negates any monopoly they might have on apps. Yes it’s stupid.
Key difference, this one had a jury make the final call
the law should be the same for all, not at the interpretation of whichever judge you get.
Welcome to the US of A. Happens literally all the time. Hence the big fight over control of the Supreme Court.
About the only benefit I can personally see from this is the ability to fully integrate F-Droid as an app store in my device, with proper automatic background updates, and without requiring root solutions that void my work’s security measures for mobile devices. On the other hand, I can see Huawei, Amazon, and Epic jumping to the fray with their own app stores and system services, and maybe Google Play being far more lenient with subscription services like Spotify’s in their own App Store. Altogether, I personally loathe Epic’s approach, but appreciate the consequences of their lawsuit.
Increased competition is ALWAYS better for the customer.
You’re forgetting AppBrain from like 15 years ago.
I agree on the concerns, but it’s a virtually universal truth, so long as they’re actually forced to treat other app stores fairly. We might end up with a true third party stepping in to claim the throne, at least until the mega-corps reverse all the optimization they’ve created for their own benefits (even things like searches for apps are not fully intended to benefit the user right now, things most people don’t really realize).
This may force Google to address their terrible dispute resolution policies though. If they keep removing software without providing any meaningful dispute resolution, then I would hope that there’s a possibility for alternate repositories to fill that void.
Amazon has/had an app store, it was terrible. Though I welcome competitors to step up after this.
Amazon still has its own app store open - mostly because it’s the one Microsoft used as the base for their Android compatibility layer. I expect this ruling to give Amazon a breath of fresh air as “the alternative app store”.
Droidify with adb or Shizuku can already do that. But it needs Android 12+. Then it can do unattended updates.
Problem is, ADB requires enabling developer mode, and guess what - my company also blocks access to devices with developer mode on! (Also, the fact that Shizuku doesn’t work correctly over mobile because it requires stable Wi-Fi to fake a wireless debug connection doesn’t help matters.)
Shizuku only requires WiFi once per boot. But it also needs ADB, so it sadly won’t work for your company phone.
I think the Session Installer mode allows updates without a dialog for apps already installed by Droidify without dev mode or adb.
ITT: lots of people wondering why Apple won and Google lost, but not reading the article, which explains the difference of the cases.
ITC: Someone not understanding the difference between not understanding and not agreeing.
Yeah, fuck that. I definitely don’t agree with the ruling. iOS is far more restrictive than Android, because at least Android provides the ability to easily install alternatives (F-droid app store is an awesome alternative for many types of apps and it’s all free). Sure, Android dominates the market globally, but in the US–nd many other countries-- Apple has the majority of marketshare. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ios-vs-android-market-share-135251641.html
It’s just bullshit to me that Apple gets a free pass for clearly being anti-competitive. I’m glad this trial struck down Google’s app store monopoly, but all phone OS’s should be forbidden from doing it.
Totally agree with your idea, but so you know Apple has lost another legal fight. Europe condemnes it for monopoly of not only App Store, but also Safari and other services. About a month ago.
The browser monopoly really is a stupid thing, what even is the point of installing any other browser if they have to be reskins of safari?
True, thread is full of both types
No it doesn’t, it just says that the case was different and that it wasn’t in front of a jury, it doesn’t give the details of the difference. You have to go read the entire article from a few years ago
So odd that the open source platform that allows sideloading and doesn’t even come with an app store by default is the one that is a monopoly but the locked down one with total control over your device is not.
Some Android flavors even come with other app stores. Samsung phones have their own Samsung app store that even includes Fortnite.
problem here was that Google was doing deals to undermine those things
Apple has no such “deals” because apple owns the entire stack.
Welcome to law, Apple is less monopolistic than Google legally simply because Apple built a better monopoly, by denying competition in the first place.
They do control Play Services, however. That’s not open source and includes proprietary apps basically essential for an operating smart phone such as Google sign in, Maps, and of course the Play Store. Google used their market dominance in those fields to prevent third parties from launching or installing competitors to the Play Store by denying Play Services to those who didn’t comply; paying them off directly or brokering sweetheart deals. That’s appears like an obvious abuse of their market position.
They do control Play Services, however. That’s not open source and includes proprietary apps basically essential for an operating smart phone such as Google sign in, Maps, and of course the Play Store.
Wtf is this? You do not need google sign in for running a smart phone. Hell, one of the features of stock AOSP Android is being in no way tied to Google.
This is so wild. Google allows side loading and 3rd party app stores…and that is the reason they were found guilty.
Unlike Apple, Google allows people to download apps onto phones running its Android operating system without going through its official app store, but the company strikes deals with phone manufacturers to favor Google’s official app store.
So because they strike deals to favor their store, even though they allow 3rd party stores to begin with, they’ve violated the SAA.
Meanwhile, Apple who refuses to allow competition or 3rd party app stores is sitting pretty because…well, they haven’t “favored” their own store over rival stores. BECAUSE RIVAL STORES CANT EXIST. I don’t know how you could favor your store any harder than that??
The legal shenanigans around all of this are frustrating to watch as a lay person.
looks at epic “striking deals” to have games on their storefront
thats ok with me. Wouldnt buy a ios device anyways. Exactly, because they dont allow third party apps.
Fuck Epic, but this is a good decision for everyone.
The golden take imo. Hope they rule against Apple in the similar case.
True. Tencent sucks
Huh?? They won this one but not the Apple one??
Different case. This hung on the anti-competitive nature of Google’s backroom deals with big players. That’s what fucked Google. Different rules for different developers.
Apple: this is our system and we’ve always been upfront about it. We’re dictators of our ecosystem. You can’t compel us to open up. Yes there’s less customer choice, but we have a right to say how our own system is run, and we’ve always made that clear to everybody. Forcing us to open up our system is like forcing Nintendo to allow Microsoft games on the Switch, bypassing paying Nintendo anything.
The courts say fair enough, that’s correct.
Google: we claim to have an open ecosystem, but actually we don’t. We’re using our market position to impose terms on phone makers, if they’re big like Samsung we might give them permission to have their own app store, with certain concessions. We have backroom deals not to take revenue from some large companies, but to take it from others. We have power over OEMs and we use it to further consolidate our monopoly. They will agree to our terms because they have no other choice than to comply.
The courts say whoa that seems like an abuse of your dominant market position.
You’re looking at it from the perspective of user choice. That’s not what the courts care about, they care about the law. The Google case was always more likely to be a win for Epic, despite Reddit and Lemmy not realising it.
But Epic v. Google turned out to be a very different case. It hinged on secret revenue sharing deals between Google, smartphone makers, and big game developers, ones that Google execs internally believed were designed to keep rival app stores down. It showed that Google was running scared of Epic specifically. And it was all decided by a jury, unlike the Apple ruling.
The thing here is that you don’t have to use play billing for in app purchases outside of the play store. The biggest example of this is Fire tablets, where you don’t even have the option of play billing on your app even if you wanted it, and I’m sure Huawei isn’t using play billing either. Let alone the fact you can sideload apps that have their own verification methods. When I bought gravitybox it was verified based on your PayPal invoice #. The secret revenue sharing, while “designed to keep apps down”, is nothing more than an incentive to stay on their billing platform. If Epic isn’t offered that deal they’re still free to make deals with other app stores.
Meanwhile on camp Apple, there are no alternative vendors using different stores and you’re unable to sideload apps without a developer account. There is no alternative to Apple’s billing if you want to charge for something inside an app, which is precisely what Epic did to get banned in the first place.
I 100% the verdict to be appealed by Google. I’m not a big fan of Google as a company, but when they’ve specifically made it possible for customers to have the ability to sideload while Apple doesn’t and they get spat in the face for it, why would they continue to make pro-consumer choices?
Google made back room deals with other development firms to help suppress the use of other app stores.
That’s the issue here. The collusion aspect.
It’s very different than Apple.
* Allegedly.
What exactly is evidence that Google has suppressed other stores, and in what manner ? If you consider say, Samsung, Xiaomi, Oppo etc - all have their own stores in parallel to the Play Store. And on all/other phones, you’re free sideload any third-party app store.
Taking my Samsung phone as an example, I don’t see the Play Store being promoted any more prominently than the Galaxy Store, nor do I see any blockers for using the Galaxy Store. I believe this is the same for other OEMs as well who bundle their own stores.
So tell me, where exactly is the suppression here?
While I agree, it seems like antitrust lawsuits gain a lot more ground if the defendant was paying people to switch from competitors which is what got Google here.
And they probably won’t.
iOS is only on Apple devices, therefore it’s allowed to have a monopoly or something.
Much like Nintendo’s allowed to have a monopoly on Switch systems and games even though the Steam Deck exists with the ability to install a huge amount of games.
i hope this one also smashes Apple’s business to tiny pieces. All these companies are horrible horrible destructors of humanity.
I’m not sure how them losing a part of their potential revenue stream does that…
It’s not as if Google or Apple rely soley on IAPs for revenue.
Finally a big W. Google backdoored Android with Google Play Services and gives itself special permissions that no other app can do. They should be under the same limitations that other apps are reserved to. That’s why projects like Sandboxed Google play is really awesome.
I’m pretty sure this has nothing to do with the EU lawsuits, right?
Both Google and Apple would still have to open up soon (at least in EU)
Sorry if it’s a stupid question.
I run e/OS, I don’t have google app store or any of the related service software installed. Yet I am able to use a cleaned up version of android and still have access to the google app store through an anonymous account using the in built app.
Epic won this case against google…
Epic lost the same case against apple, with which none of the above would be possible.
I’m not advocating for google, obviously I avoid them. But that’s BS, I hope this is used as precedent to bring a new case against apple.
Seriously this is crazy. Apple somehow winning is way worse as there is simply no way to install third party apps on IOS. Android makes the risks clear but it’s still at least possible if you click install anyway.
In terms of being a monopoly, in the US ios has more market share anyway. Google’s lawyers must have really made some big mistake.
Both lawsuits are going into round 2, afaik.
So now Google will be forced to… allow third party app stores? Like F-Droid or Amazon and I think Yandex has a big one as well. If Epic aren’t suing for damages I don’t really see what the goal could be. Another win for all the lawyers I guess.
I imagine Epic doesn’t really care about that so much as not giving Google 30% of in-game purchases in Fortnite.
But they wouldn’t have to use Google’s IAP service if they distributed Fortnite as a self-updating apk on their website.
Maybe, but that’s not where the vast majority of people look for apks and part of the lawsuit where Epic says they have a monopoly.
And ask normal people to give their browser app-install permissions?
Those sound very scary, not a very practical way to get a lot of users
Google isn’t being forced to do anything. The judge specifically stated they’re not doing injunctions or anything. If Epic has another problem, “you can come back.”
Now, that’s still a ruling, and a ruling helps dissuade Google from doing certain things, but there’s not likely to be anything “forced” here.
Currently, it’s.more that Google isn’t being forced to do anything yet. The judge has said a few things he won’t do, but the final judgement on what Google has to do are “up to Judge James Donato, who’ll decide what the appropriate remedies might be.”
If Epic aren’t suing for damages I don’t really see what the goal could be
As reported by The Verge,
Epic says it’s asking for three things: freedom for Epic and other developers to introduce their own stores without restriction, total freedom to use its own billing system, and an anti-circumvention provision “just to be sure Google can’t reintroduce the same problems through some alternative creative solution.”
Judge Donato says the last won’t happen: “We don’t do don’t- break-the-law injunctions… if you have a problem, you can come back.”
Fuck both of those companies, but overall a good ruling.
Huh? They could just do a Fortnite.apk
No the point. Most users won’t install anything not on the app store.
Yea, but how is that a monopoly? There is even a fullon android AppStore from Amazon
A monopoly is about market share and access to a market, “there is also …” doesn’t cut it in that discussion.
The real issue here is that Apple is still allowed to do it.
Apple apparently doesn’t do backroom deals to stop other people from making app stores. That’s the difference between the two verdicts.
Of course, that’s because Apple just doesn’t allow other app stores at all, but apparently that’s not against the rules.
They do backroom deals to bring apps and games to iOS by offering reduced commissions on app purchases and subscriptions. They just haven’t been caught yet.
They know about those deals, but that isn’t usually illegal. Keep in mind Epic themselves do that for their timed exclusives.
Apple’s app store may be a problem, but saying “someone else is also doing something bad” doesn’t mean what Google is doing isn’t bad & illegal.
A lot of people use fdroid
“a lot” means less than 0.01% of android users.
And stuff like fortnite would never make it to fdroid as well. People seem to jump through so many hoops to not admit the obvious monopoly in play.
Fdroid is for open source apps. Fortnite is anything but.
That was my point? Make it as in make its way to fdroid due to their restrictions.
Ah. My bad. I misread it.
I don’t think Epic ask that Fortnite is on any store but their own. They want their fully capable launcher on the dominant store.
Ik I was referring to previous comment mate. They were suggesting there are alternatives like fdroid.
Ah yes, year of linux vibes.
I don’t like the notion that something having majority market share makes it a monopoly. The definition of monopoly, at least, as understood by me implies control of supply, not just having a higher demand.
They do infact. The exact filename is
FortniteInstaller-5.3.0.apk, so you’re not too off the mark. :)
Epic never sued for monetary damages; it wants the court to tell Google that every app developer has total freedom to introduce its own app stores and its own billing systems on Android
I wonder how this will work out. If the judge actually forces it, so many large apps might show up on alternatives like fdroid and greatly improve fdroid capabilities.
Fdroid better stay as FOSS and privacy focused. I don’t want to see Spotify or some subscription brand bullshit up there.
I don’t believe the F-Droid will ever be implementing any kind of payment processing through the app store.
How many game launchers are there on PC. There will be 100x more on mobile.
