Can Electric vehicles still be considered environmentally friendly when the factories they are made in still produce emissions?
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There has been a lot of research into this, and very roughly speaking by the time an EV has done 25K miles it is environmentally more friendly than an ICE, and every mile after that makes it more so.
That 25K number will continue to come down as more electricity production shifts to renewables.
Trolls get less smart every minute.
Yes, they can be considered environmentally friendly because they are a much better technology than what we have now. I think you could criticise many things about EVs but you picked the most stupid argument. You could say that mining the materials for the batteries produces more emissions, or that in many countries electricity is generated using fossil fuels, but okay… This factories will produce less emissions as the electricity sector gets cleaner and as manufacturing processes become more efficient, but so far it’s the best we can have, unless we all decided to ride wooden bicycles.
An ICE vehicle burns fuel to operate so the longer it operates the more fuel it’s burned. Even though an EV starts with a deeper environmental deficit than an ICE, that situation improves the longer it operates because it’s not burning gasoline. That equation improves even further if that EV is charged using renewables like solar.
And and and - batteries can be recycled up to 95%. So dig up the lithium once and use it again and again and again.
You can’t do that with oil or gas.
There should be a name for this fallacy. Yes, making anything produces emissions if you go back in the supply chain - we don’t have a choice to avoid those emissions at the moment. The point is to make a world where it’s the other way around.
I saw this recently from Apple - there’s no emissions directly in making Apple Watches but they’re going way back in the supply chain to scrub or compensate for emissions.
“There should be a name for this fallacy.”
There is, Perfect is the Enemy of Good
Perfect is the enemy of good is an aphorism which means insistence on perfection often prevents implementation of good
There is also the Nirvana Fallacy
The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the “perfect solution fallacy”.
By creating a false dichotomy that presents one option which is obviously advantageous—while at the same time being completely implausible—a person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. Under this fallacy, the choice is not between real world solutions; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic achievable possibility and another unrealistic solution that could in some way be “better”.
You’re talking about the world of Lifecycle Assessment (LCA). This is a very well understood process. And over the lifetime of the car you have significantly less overall emissions. It’s like paying a big down payment to have a lower monthly. Except rather than it being similar money in the end, EVs have less. Lots of studies have been done to show this. Many countries and power sources have shown over and over again, over the standard lifespan, the emissions are significantly less.
In most cases, you become less overall after 2 years.
TLDR: BEVs still have huge pollution problems that lead me to believe that they are not environmentally friendly, but are marginally better than currently offered ICEs.
Full response: Many of the comments seem to be more inflammatory or reactive than logical. This is one of the problems with both sides of the argument. People rarely compare apples to apples or use logic rather than emotions.
Similar to what someone stated previously: most manufacturing processes produce pollution and to truly remedy this it takes massive and difficult changes, but some companies (outside of auto) are getting there. The auto industry is particularly bad for not reforming the materials and processes used to manufacture. The auto industry is not only cost competitive, but it also relies heavily on material engineering. This then takes us to the next point…
On one hand, most existing ICE manufacturing plants still use non-renewable energy. On the other hand, the ICE plants that do use renewable energy would produce far less pollution. Although many BEV sheep wail about this being “fake news,” there is a sufficient amount of studies done on the subject to paint a complete picture. BEV batteries and motors are simply more chemically complex and difficult to utilize than the iron, aluminum, and magnesium used in ICE drivetrain components. It really has little to do with how the plant is powered, it’s the materials used in the manufacturing process. All plants can be converted to renewable energy, but you can’t easily switch out the materials used. The mining, refinement, manufacturing, and recycling of batteries and electric motors is what produces to bulk of problematic pollution from BEVs.
Manufacturers that talk about the recyclability of their car and its components are often lying or being extremely liberal with the numbers. Countless studies have found that not only are ICE drivetrains more recyclable (once again, they are more basic metals and already have recycling infrastructure in place) but that BEV batteries are actually rarely recycled and not nearly as recyclable as claimed. Not to mention all batteries need to be replaced and recycled eventually which for most BEV manufacturers sits at around 60% of its original capacity, which is problematic.
To wrap things up, yes, advances in battery chemistry are being made. Yes, these advances could make a difference. No, the advances are not right around the corner like many on reddit seem to claim, nor are they going to rid of all problems with BEVs pollution. Yes, most BEVs are more environmentally friendly than most ICEs. Most comprehensive academic journal articles and government reports that I have read on the subject have shown a smaller improvement in pollution than I think many are led to believe between BEVs and ICEs. Many have even shown that it is so close, that they are virtually equal. So no, I wouldn’t call BEVs environmentally friendly, but I would consider them a better short term solution than buying an ICE. Long term, other options should be explored such as hydrogen.
None of that is accurate.
I suggest you read up some more.
I mean, it sounds like long winded bot-speak to me.
And write less
An article posted about a month ago here showed that the break-even point is about 15k-20k miles. So driving an ICE from new to 10k miles is cleaner than driving an EV from new to 10k. But the EV beats the ICE from 15k-20k onward.
Interesting
The important thing is, that there is a clear path towards production with zero emissions. We aren’t there, yet, but over time we’ll get there. Everything that goes into an EV can eventually be made without emissions. It’s important to continue the transition now.
Canoo has learnt a way around this. They have customers lined up, a working production facility, and aren’t making a darn thing.
So green.
Many EVs are made in green powered or carbon neutral factories and use lots of recycled materials.
The supply chain can be made and already do so to buy carbon taxes to offset emission. Or improve emission standard. You can accuse china for heavy pollution but all your china EVs import already pass all environmental standard.
You can search for “EV cradle to grave emissions” to find analysis comparing the total lifetime emissions of EVs versus other vehicle types including the initial manufacturing emissions. This is typically lower for EVs even when the emissions from manufacturing and the power grid are included. This gets better over time with manufacturing efficiency and more renewable energy in the power grid.
Of course “Environmentally friendly” is a spectrum. Walking or riding a bike or taking an electric train to work are all going to have a lower lifetime emissions than buying a new EV.
making everything produces emissions, your food, clothes, bicycles etc. not just an EV.
Compared to not making them (and keep making ICDE cars)? Definitely.
You can’t do anything without emissions, the workers that built the product were raised based on coal-burning electricity in their childhood. Are you going to kill them all?