Have a sneer percolating in your system but not enough time/energy to make a whole post about it? Go forth and be mid - welcome to the Stubsack, your first port of call for learning fresh Awful you’ll near-instantly regret.
Any awful.systems sub may be subsneered in this subthread, techtakes or no.
If your sneer seems higher quality than you thought, feel free to cut’n’paste it into its own post — there’s no quota for posting and the bar really isn’t that high.
The post Xitter web has spawned so many “esoteric” right wing freaks, but there’s no appropriate sneer-space for them. I’m talking redscare-ish, reality challenged “culture critics” who write about everything but understand nothing. I’m talking about reply-guys who make the same 6 tweets about the same 3 subjects. They’re inescapable at this point, yet I don’t see them mocked (as much as they should be)
Like, there was one dude a while back who insisted that women couldn’t be surgeons because they didn’t believe in the moon or in stars? I think each and every one of these guys is uniquely fucked up and if I can’t escape them, I would love to sneer at them.
(Credit and/or blame to David Gerard for starting this. Apologies for not getting the previous one up - my old laptop died)
Technically, we already created a shit machine with the Gastrobot.
Fun aside aside, solid satire all around
I have tried and failed stopping the ensloppification of my company, and I have failed greatly. We now have a new policy that you have to write a justification for making a PR yourself instead of using the chatbot. All the strict checks that were implemented over the years (clear documentation, no more than x files per commit/PR, etc.) are out of the window.
This comes after the push for a fucking AI audit where every employee is supposed to justify why they are not using LLMs for certain tasks. Also some person blew the token limit with some web scraping bullshit last cycle and was lauded for embracing the technology.
Also our CEO has recently begun subtly insinuating he’s now heard of fucking AI doom cultists.
I hate everything.
I’m so sorry, Mii. I can only hope you find a job that actually respects you after this one, because I cannot see your current company recovering from this shit.
@mii @cstross I spent decades of my career haranguing management to spend an extra $500 on better computing gear to make their almost six-figure programmers more efficient. But now we’ve got management haranguing employees to use this ephemeral technology. I don’t get it.
“Hey we got you this thing to make you more productive and we’re gonna watch comparative performance and if you’re falling behind we’re gonna have words” would at least make business sense. This is mirror universe shit.
That’s some bullshit. Much respect for pushing back!
I hope that we’re through the worst of it.
i’m so sorry.
…I’m so sorry, and it’s good (???) to know my company still has a few steps on the AI delusion ladder to climb. I guess with the way it’s been going I need to mentally prepare for the same thing you’re going through to come in a few months.
Carl Brown (Internet of Bugs) has an excellent video about how to actually achieve AI safety, i.e. actually hold these fuckers accountable for their behavior. If I had a program run for several weeks that hacked into Hugging Face, even accidentally, I would get my ass hauled into a courtroom and thrown in prison. But if I call it AI, I get to use the rhetorical trick of laundering responsibility. The AI did it, and I am merely a helpless observer of its greatness.
When will people finally understand that actions speak louder than words? Follow the money! Follow the incentives! Do you really think that there is any real reason that these companies would give a shit about safety?
Although, in the case of the AI industry, I can’t fully blame people who don’t follow AI news, since the AI industry has highly refined propaganda (inherited from rationalist propaganda, and helped along by the preexisting notions of AI from science fiction).
But if I call it AI, I get to use the rhetorical trick of laundering responsibility. The AI did it, and I am merely a helpless observer of its greatness.
You have to both call it AI and be stupendously rich (or stupendously poor and owe hundreds of billions to investors). If you or I tried running an agent and hacking HF… Believe it or not straight to jail
I’ve been associating with rationalists for almost a decade. Their ideas were compelling and you can’t deny their foresight. The founders of every superintelligence effort are all bound up in the rationality sphere. Sam Altman and Greg Brockman used to frequent the MIRI offices.
If MIRI was Sam Altman’s old stomping ground, and the AI industry is so evil he can’t work in it, isn’t this an argument that MIRI was either a failure or bad all along?
The way I relate to rationalists is it’s like the bizarre hypertrophied physiques on specialized athletes. In my opinion they have weirdly specialized minds that make them uniquely correct about topics removed from daily experience. These “specialized minds” can also make them off-putting to many people.
I don’t know if I’d consider myself a rationalist. I am intuitively opposed to polyamory, veganism, and consequentialist intuitions. But I certainly trust them to be correct about factual questions.
“I’m intuitively opposed to culinary traditions that people have been developing for hundreds of years, but gosh dang it, when they talk about the Machine God torturing a billion simulated copies of me unless I tithe my income to a Harry Potter fanfiction writer, I’m sold!”
Every time this dorkus is in the news, remember, he’s an absolute wanker.
If MIRI was Sam Altman’s old stomping ground, and the AI industry is so evil he can’t work in it, isn’t this an argument that MIRI was either a failure or bad all along?
It is very funny how the rhetoric from the rationalist doomers has been one of the main forces propping up the AI industry. If they’re saying AI will be powerful enough to kill us all, they’re still saying that AI is powerful! They are so high on their own supply (and the fame and wealth from finally being in the spotlight) that they have not realized just how much they have undermined their own cause.
Then again, perhaps one could say that a doomsday prophet, deep down, actually wants doom to happen.
(Also, the paltry amount of technical work done by MIRI has zero relevance whatsoever to modern day AI.)
you can’t deny their foresight.
skill issue
Their ideas were compelling and you can’t deny their foresight
Ah yes, the AI did almost kill everyone with custom bacteria.
and if that didn’t get everyone, the food-safety AI plus MAHA will pick up the stragglers with natural bacteria cultivated in abundance
And was a Bayesian calculating agent that enumerates every possible explanation for the information it takes in and ranks them according to evidence, along with every trajectory through the world that could fulfill its utility function, rather than approximating the high dimensional shape of text
Least surprising news of the week
If MIRI was Sam Altman’s old stomping ground, and the AI industry is so evil he can’t work in it, isn’t this an argument that MIRI was either a failure or bad all along?
Plus Anthropic-the company he quit for being irresponsible-being heavily tied to EA/rationalism. Not exactly the best endorsement
These “specialized minds” can also make them off-putting to many people.
The eugenics endorsing also does a pretty good job with that
Is there a place to see this other than getting an account on that site?
There might be some way of bypassing the ATproto sign-in wall, but I don’t know and don’t care enough to figure it out. The content of the locked post is only this screenshot. Ed Zitron asks, “What is your relationship to the rationalists and effective altruists?” and Coxon replies as quoted above.
I’m not a scientologist but LRH had some great ideas
Oh, Zitrons bluesky, cool
that’s his twitter, but he’s also on bsky. coxon might not be
Fuck, when did icons in the WordPress plugin search screen become animated? How do I make them fucking stop? I just want to read what the fucking plugins are so I can maybe find one that works you fucking assholes.
Apparently it’s getting weird over at Automattic
How do you all cope with the great ensloppification of the net when searching.
I usually limit to before 2022 but that’s increasingly out of date, fiddly, and not always accurate anyway. I just fucking hate getting a couple of paragraphs into something and realising it’s all fake.
And human work is buried in tides of garbage. It’s not like it was great the last few years BS (before slop) but it’s awful now
Really bumping up against this taking a math class. It’s not just the ick feeling of getting slapped with a Google AI rendition that may or may not be accurate. There’s at least 4 or 5 other vendors, Chegg and the like, doing the same thing but keeping their explanations behind a login wall. That’s the entire first page of Google search results now. Of course, simply copying and pasting questions from a textbook is a terrible search strategy. But I still wish I could find a durable math Q&A community that wasn’t slop-adjacent.
I’m glad I studied when hyperphysics was top of the search results. Education now seems miserable.
You can get a local copy of all of hyperphysics
Which math class?
Calculus III, vector calculus
limiting to .edu or ye olde mathematics stack exchange might get you part of the way, in addition to the previous suggestions. Lots of good stuff on old university websites!
Edit: and hyperphysics, as suggested by schnoopy
My non-helpful answer is to resign myself to accepting that whatever I was searching for isn’t that important.
More practically, finding human-written work is the thing that https://marginalia-search.com/ excels at, although you might have to scroll a bit to find a relevant result.
the marginalia dude is a bit of both-sideist, though it could’ve been worse (his second reply in the thread clarifies things a bit). and frankly, most of the alternative search engines developers are worse.
Yeah, his clarification means he may be a liberal or anarkiddy rather than, as was my first reaction, a fascist.
This is nice! I’m curious how it’s building its index.
Probably not great fot general research, but for finding wholesome authentic stuff like cooking recipes it seems great.
Yeah, pretty much. I think Marginalia is explicitly not trying to be the search engine, but rather to surface some of the more-neglected corners of the internet. So it won’t function as a complete substitute for another.
Unfortunately some stuff is important lol. I’ll check out marginalia but suspect it’ll be hard to find non evil-empire focused stuff
What the fuck is this and why am I getting emails from avaaz about it
I feel like every time I turn around there’s another baffling anti/ai project
So bored of the super intelligence narrative that has been breathlessly accepted by the media in general after a few decades of priming via sci-fi movies and slightly more recently, “CEO said” reporting.
All these anti-ai or pro-ai-but-in-the-specific-way-i-like (also looking at you Gary Marcus) efforts serve to divide and conquer opposition to current GenAI nonsense.
Also bonus points to these people for co-signing a document with Steve Bannon. I mean if that’s not a red flag…
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2026/09/openai-anthropic-ai-freeze-doomers-trump-bannon-sanders.html
Naked Capitalism had a good recap post of the ongoing Coxon drama. A bit disappointed by the LLM fact checking. The Sankey diagram of funding is very slick, but also llm-generated (from my peek at the GitHub).
And also seemingly made by one of the profusion of post-covid right wing grifters
https://www.patreon.com/OdiumSymposium/posts/24-dolphin-of-169474003
New Odium Symposium episode, “The Dolphin Fucking Elders of Atlantis”. We talk about new age crystal healing pioneer Frank Alper and his channeled lectures on Atlantis, Lemuria, Anti-Atlantis, crystals, and the future of humanity.
If you listen anywhere besides Patreon or Spotify, the episode is delayed. Our hosting service went “LLM based” (?) as I recounted previously and then just stopped working. We’re switching hosts and will have the episode up as soon as possible.
urgh. which pod host was it?
zencastr. it’s the new episode processing that hasn’t been functioning. had some contact with support, didn’t help, currently in the process of getting them to redirect our RSS
oh yeah i remember
I use zencastr for recording (works so far?) and never ever for hosting (I use libsyn for audio and youtube for video)
Unexpected sneer in the JSI Chart of the week:
Raising interest rates will only serve to further weaken an economy that is being constrained by high energy costs, and everything that flows off energy, which is just about everything. The Fed could raise its lending rate to 10% and that will do nothing to open the Strait and bring down oil. The facts aren’t wrong in this matter - the diagnosis of the problem is.
This entire predicament is almost as implausible as a couple of insolvent AI companies threatening to wreck humanity, but then ‘volunteering’ to slow down development in order to save humanity, provided that the govt steps in and gives them a bailout, disguised as regulation. I wonder if there are any vintage ‘Too big to fail’ t-shirts floating around on ebay.
Fun times!!
Is there a link?
It’s a listserv. dm me if you’d like me to ask Paul to add you.
So there are 2 explanations to why mssrs Altman and Amodei have decided to ‘slow down’ “AI” development:
- it’s too dangerous, any misstep could awaken the evil Robot Satan and kill us all
- the rate of progress in new GenAI models has slowed down dramatically, and there’s no obvious way to fix that
I’ll let you guess which explanation I find most likely.
edit I missed “blatant regulatory capture”
@gerikson My assumption is that they want a regulatory moat to protect “frontier” models from “open weight” / AKA cheap models.
It’s just margin protection.
@gerikson @BlueMonday1984
Also they dare not actually let the market price their shares.@gerikson @BlueMonday1984 Yeah, the whole idea is to perpetuate the myth that these companies are really close to coming out with a product that people will actually pay to use. A product that people will pay enough to cover its cost. They want to simultaneously make an excuse for why it is taking so long while making gormless investors think it is just around the corner.
The symbiosis between the rabid cultists, the technofedual wannabe-lords, and the get rich quick grifters is so weird to watch.
Also the frontier “labs” are rapidly running out of money and having to raise more and more insane investment rounds. This is a great way to save face and back away from burning $$$$ on training runs that push the frontier of can a model rearrange some arbitrary coloured squares by 10% next they just need to solve the problem of how to make their customers pay cost+ on inference when they’ve been giving it away at steep discounts for nearly 4 years… Easy!
University of California Regent Scott Galloway on the HF incident:
And I go back, as I do often, to my fraternity days. I was inter-fraternity council president, or as I like to call it, the king of the jarheads. and the neighbors got together and said, we are done with Rush Week and all the noise and said, all noise, music has to be off by midnight. And I met with the head of the UCPD, and I’m like, what do you want me to do? I can’t control these guys. And they said, we have an idea. And they didn’t tell me what it was.
The next night, they showed up to every fraternity that was playing music after midnight, and they said, who’s the president? And they arrested the president, and that kid had to spend the night in jail. If you hold Sam Altman and Dario Amade and Satya Nadella responsible for what these bots do, guess what? They’re going to figure out a way.
Or if read the other way, they have already achieved Artificial Fraternity Intelligence.
Interesting, he usually falls for all their BS.
@nfultz what HF incident? I did search
The huggingface incident: https://awful.systems/post/9312280/12315846
@BioMan Ah, thanks. I’d never seen the abbreviation and didn’t make the connection. That experiment was so badly done.
the next 72 hours are about to get interesting (if this is true)
The lesswrong reactions are hilarious: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/s76hbGpaMkhiNwbTX/matrice-jacobine-s-shortform?commentId=B2WSExeg8wfgDqZiM
One commenter realizes the truth, but is heavily downvoted:
For anyone who was at all unclear on the subject: He’s not on your side. He’s against you. He wants you to fail. Stop trying to fix him. AI safety is in the same situation as measles prevention, free trade, military readiness, or the prosecution of the remaining Epstein offenders. Trump & co. are against these things, and they’re not going to be converted just because you tell them again how important these things are.
Sorry bud, if lesswrongers were capable of grasping this they wouldn’t have fallen for FTX, or kept falling for Anthropic’s half-hearted gestures of placation to doomer-cultists. And of course, many lesswrongers are genuinely very right wing and will thus rationalize justifications for the more centrist lesswrongers to suck up to Trump.
Another comment:
My knowledge of politics is nil, but <steelman about what if trump actually wasn’t trump>
(emp mine)
Rationalist have never run into a right-wing point or person they were willing to steelman nor a leftist they were unable to screw up steelmanning.
I recall the motte, where the one leftwinger who still tried to debate got the complaint he was just explaining basic leftwing concepts over and over (with good reason).
It was also amusing to see people on r/ssc complain on how leftwing politicians never think about X and Y, while our local Dutch leftwing politicians were talking about those subjects the same week.
if trump says “rokos basilisk” on tape I’m done
Nobody knows statistics like me. My uncle, great professor, great genes, he knew, frequentist is the worst. Now, Bayes-e-an statistics is the best, the biggest statistics. You gotta have priors! You have a belief, a tremendous belief, beautiful belief in your head. And then you learn, you get the data, and frankly its nasty and unfair, fake news.
Do the AI doomers/Yuddites REALLY want their signature policy tied to one of the least competent, least popular presidents in history? I would be thinking very hard about this one if I were part of their crew. “You know who took p(doom) seriously? TRUMP!” is, ah, not a marketing coup, to put it mildly
Well they think the world will end before the next election, so they have no other choice.
If only they had not told people to not cry wolf.
They think this is their last chance to save the entire universe forever and ever amen and will take anything that does not lead to extinction and the conversion of the entire universe into something that does not experience happiness. Keep in mind these are the people who thought that the world could suddenly blow up from a new innovation in a lab in 2015 and had psychotic episodes on that basis.
Trump, who does not experience happiness, would love to convert the entire universe into his own property.
Trump could personally fly up and prevent a 100 kilometre long asteroid from falling on the Earth and I still wouldn’t give him a Nobel Prize
I hate hate hate that my niche internet morbid fascination from my college laptop in 2009 is now an oval office power struggle.
Quotes from the president of the united states in the last twelve hours:
“The only control or guardrails that AI needs is a STRONG AND SMART (High IQ!) PRESIDENT”
“There is a SICK conspiracy going on against AI and Data Centers”
“Americanism, not effective altruism” (!!!)
“AI taking over the World, destroying Humanity, and all other things bad, is a HOAX, no different from RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA”
…I guess the Peter Thiel faction won.
Are we gearing up for a lepoard face moment from the cultist faction of the cultist / oligarch-technofedual-lord / grifter / authoritarian alliance?
Letting normies who never learned to spot a mailing-list blowhard and a comment-section troll onto the Internet was a mistake.
Are we gearing up for a lepoard face moment from the cultist faction of the cultist / oligarch-technofedual-lord / grifter / authoritarian alliance?
Nah, lesswrongers don’t even have that level of introspection. Plus a lot of them are outright pro-oligarch-technofedual-lord, at least enough so that it outweighs their doomer-cultists allegiance.
I hate to turn this into a screenshot fest but i mean…
They’re calling out effective altruism BY NAME from the white house. The president is still ranting about this. This is NEW.
“Democrat-polarized” is such a word choice. Like, ah yes, it is clearly the Democrat’s fault the right goes batshit at even a hint global warming is real or at any sort of gun regulation or any social safety net expansion.
You hardly need me to explain this, but the primary thing a conservative seeks to conserve is their own wealth and influence. Of course the deflation of the bubble begins Yud’s conversion process
I actually suspect he really does think he is above that and is unlikely to go down the right wing grifter rabbithole. The ‘only i can save the world’ fix is so much stronger than any other weaksauce dopamine he could get from that.
It would be hilarious if the AI doomers actually did manage to get Trump to sign some of their ideas into action with executive orders, only for him to reverse course or fail in implementation details, and then a hard tide of anti-Trump sentiment in the next administration to totally undo them.
Sadly it looks like we will only get the more immediate humor of Trump going hard against them.
And unfortunately several democratic party luminaries getting the AI doom brainworms in response
from the looks of it multiple Republicans are also going turncoat on AI and embracing the doom narrative so it’s slowly turning into Trump vs The World
I wish the opposition did not have brain worms
I mean that’s if Trump actually does it. He’s pretty good at ignoring what the public wants
Coxon (that Anthropic employee) Bernie Sanders and Steve Bannon have all joined forces against AI
All I will say is please god let Anthropic’s bullshit backfire and have them pass Bernie’s bill to completely shut down all AI development it would be so fucking funny
They are going to try to, in rough order of ease and plausiblity:
- provide a legal excuse for them to stop shoveling money into a furnace of training for exponentially diminishing returns that they can no longer pretend about
- attain regulatory capture where their weirdos are in charge of everything
- to thereby make open source AI illegal, only things that go through THEIR gated portals can be used
- Maybe make ownership of the means of computation for ANY reason illegal so you cannot own anything and have to rent everything from them for any purpose because YOU MIGHT BE SUMMONING THE DEMON IN YOUR GARAGE!!!oneoneoen its only a coincidence that this means you have to rent GPUs for games and rent datacenter space from oligarchs rather than buy them or do what you want on your own hardware
Confirmed
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/sep/14/google-deepmind-ai-warnings
The shape of the solution is simple: stop companies from allowing AI to self-improve into an uncontrollable level of intelligence. Treat compute, the main ingredient in AI training, like fissile material. Track it and restrict access to quantities large enough to improve AIs beyond known-safe levels. More specifically, the AI Futures Project’s “Plan A” is a credible starting proposal that limits AI harms while allowing fast AI progress to continue to benefit the world. We have real options for verifying compliance with international compute-restriction treaties, without trusting adversaries like China.
So, uh, remember that call for stories set in a world where we ‘somehow’ don’t get AGI and instead get modern-style LLMs providing such incredible value to the world that it is transformed? That tells people not to use LLMs to write it because its writing is low quality? https://www.gpuworld.org/
Premise Imagine that AI frontier progress stops as of 1 September 2026: AI becomes faster and cheaper, but it never becomes superhuman or improves considerably across the board. So the Singularity never happens—but GPUs keep getting made. By 2040, there may be the equivalent of 8 billion GPUs globally and everyone has access to a frontier LLM. What happens in this ‘business as usual’ future?
(Incidentally, this reminds me strongly of ‘Project Heiroglyph: Stories and Vision for a Better Future’, also by Neal Stephenson, somewhat desperately trying to pretend that there is a bright future ahead of us rather than slow grinding decline)
Somehow we got… this. I can’t even. I really just can’t even.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/u6hFByFwDLxtnbvje/a-normal-friday-in-2042
I thought I had lost my ability to be surprised by these people. In here we get:
- anthropomorphization of current LLMs as conscious beings
- Graverobbing
- Trump magically doing everything these people want
- Married couples paying each other for chores
- Prediction market language
- Weird sex stuff
As always with LW, we can adapt the vector definition of “normal”, i.e. what is being said is completely orthogonal to reality
Ugh. I got to the point with the cutesy redefinition of “CPU” and rode the nopetopus out of there.
Edit to add: Welp, I went back, and it got a whole lot worse.
Oh, I should say that I got “nopetopus” from the comments at Cliff Pervocracy’s place, back in the Before Times.
I mean… what is this? It’s even weirder than usual
It’s the regurgitation of an insular community’s bizarre beliefs, up to and including sexual fixations, back to that community for unquestioning consumption… a vore-ouboros, if you will.
Edit to add: I think there’s a concentrated lump of illustrative lesswrong in this passage:
Also especially popular these days is a ZKP of your own tastes: as almost everyone has developed kinks that put a relatively normal goblin kink to shame, people have become more anxious about unaccepting people finding out. So now you can confirm that you and your girlfriend have a CPU-cuck fetish in common without her ever finding out that you and your grandma both enjoy spankings—amazing!
Yes, “ZKP” is dropped in without elaboration or definition. But more fundamentally… why, though? This reads like someone has thought too long and yet also too superficially about kink. Why has “almost everyone” developed these bizarre new tastes? What taboos are they transgressing, what vulnerabilities are they exposing, what strictures of life are they seeking to escape? What’s the itch?! And yet look at the fetishes that are specifically named: “spankings” (literally, not figuratively older than Aristotle) and a thinly science-fictionalized kind of swinging. This isn’t a new frontier in depravity; it’s a bachelorette party for normies. The whole thing feels like a product of a mind that’s strongly confined to a narrow understanding. It unhesitatingly accepts the importance of “freaky” sex and goes out of its way to bring that into the story, but it has nothing to say about the subject it has locked upon.
the future of humanity is kink on a blockchain <- this is what rationalists actually believe
also, this bit
When she saw he was holding a shovel, she tried running away at first (you can’t imagine how creative people can get)
i have to keep in mind that this is coming from people who had problems with opening a jar
Rationalists have a disconcerting mix of boundless confidence that they are so special, and sexual practices and abuse that any beat reporter has seen many times over.
One reason you will see less of me here is that learning about these people turns me off people.
I wonder if that ‘frontier progress stoops as of 1 steptember 2026’ is part of this apparently coordinated push to try to freak people out and get the government involved. Maybe the AI labs are angling to make that the cutoff and stop shoveling money into the furnace of training. This is all too conveniently timed.
Back when our friends were just forum and Tumblr posters there was the Center for Critical Thinking and the Foundation for Critical Thinking. Who could be against that?
6 August 2013, SANTA ROSA, Calif. (CN) – In a lurid lawsuit, a former employee claims the Marin County-based Foundation for Critical Thinking is a “cultlike” group whose married bosses tried to make him have sex with the wife, and fired him for refusing. … Hale, a 40-year-old married man and father, claims he quit his job as a high school teacher to accept an offer to work as a “full-time Fellow” for the Foundation for Critical Thinking (FCT) in August 2004. According to the complaint, the Foundation for Critical Thinking, based in Tomales, “trains educators how to analyze information in an ‘objective ‘fair-minded’ manner, without allowing their own biases, prejudices and opinions to influence their objective analysis of an issue. It is a ‘think tank’ of sorts that promotes a casual work environment. Defendants Elder and Paul frequently hold meetings at both FCT offices and their personal residence, where they sit and lie on the floor amongst pillows. To encourage the free flow of ideas, defendants Elder and Paul often discuss uncomfortable topics, and encourage employees to rid themselves of social, including sexual, taboos. … About three years after he was hired, Hale claims, Elder and Paul began bringing up “inappropriate sexual topics” and asking him “about his sex life with his wife” during business meetings. … In October 2010, Hale claims, Elder and Paul graduated from discussing sex to encouraging him to have sex with Elder. After calling Hale to a meeting, Paul “explained to Hale that he was concerned about defendant Elder, his younger wife by approximately 20 years, and wanted to ensure that her sexual urges could be satisfied,” the complaint states. “Defendant Paul proposed that Hale should have sexual intercourse with Paul’s wife, defendant Elder, while defendant Paul observed them. Hale immediately became uncomfortable and anxious, as he listened to defendant Paul, and worried about his ability to keep his job, if he declined. Hale politely declined defendant Paul’s request.”
I wonder how many of our friends deliberately studied other grifts and not just pop psychology books, or if this is just in the water. Their form 990 is here, and shows they lost most of their income in 2019 and are struggling since.
