Thanks for this unqualified headline.
For anyone who still needs Windows, I recommend you try the Windows 10 LTSC IoT variant.
It has support until 2032 and has all the bloatware ripped out. It’s extremely good.
They even have a Windows 11 version. That’s also really good. But I’m guessing if you’ve avoided upgrading to Windows 11, you’d prefer to stay on 10 anyway.
Is there an easy way to buy this as an individual?
Lmao
Windows doesn’t sell enterprise shit to normal people
This is why you gotta totally avoid sites like this one https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links
Microsoft is watching for you, don’t worry
They typically don’t sell licenses to individuals and even if you were able to buy one for a reseller, it would be like $500.
There are other ways of activating it, but they are a gray area, and I’d only be willing to describe them to you through DM
But will those methods even survive future updates?
The greater point is, the pattern is very clear with Microsoft and windows, and it will continue to get worse, and your options will continue to shrink. It would be better to just put any effort towards learning to use Linux and escaping the ecosystem rather than continually trying to find the ever-decreasing bits of freedom you can extract from Windows.
The activation mechanism I use on my personal PC has been active for six years without issue, so I can only assume so. And yeah, migrating to Linux works for some people, sure. But there’s no harm in letting new people know there’s options.
This isn’t reddit, you don’t need to worry about being brigaded or cancelled for talking about piracy or J-Walking
More so just trying to give the mods less to clean up if they have to. Plus I think links to it are a faux pas
Essentially, no. If you don’t care about the cost, maybe with a MSDN subscription.
I keep seeing these " time to move to Linux" threads. For my work I have to use super proprietary software which I know for a fact is Windows only. Not only that it’s GPU intensive CPU intensive and niche. I’m sure there’s a way to run Windows within Linux but I can only imagine the pain in trying to get proprietary shite to work.
On top of that I need specific CAD software, Photoshop and Illustrator. I don’t think any of these daily used programs support Linux.
From the outside, Linux just seems like an absolute ball ache to get working with all of the things I currently do without even thinking about it.
I’d love to do it. Not sure it’s going to work. Am I wrong?
No, you are right. In your situation, Linux is just not an option - yet.
I think these posts are meant for the 95% of people that use a browser, and maaaaybe a mail client on their PC.
Photoshop/Illustrator will only ever get ported if enough people have already made the move that Adobe can’t afford to ignore Linux any longer.
That being said, if those requirements are just for work, what’s keeping you on Windows on your private devices?
That’s a fair point, other than I do need to work at home on occasion!
I’ll have a good think about it.
You could switch to Linux at home and just have a windows VM in case you need to do something for work urgently.
For people just using a browser and mail, they could just use Android. Samsung Dex is pretty great as a laptop replacement.
The point is to ditch the dependency on a corporate Overlord, not to find a different daddy
Photoshop/Illustrator will only ever get ported if enough people have already made the move that Adobe can’t afford to ignore Linux any longer.
I disagree. They have a strong enough hold on the industry they can resist moving to Linux and it will have the affect of choking Linux’s growth.
Moreover, there’s no way in hell Adobe ever allows their subscription bullshit on a platform that gives the user as much control as Linux. They won’t touch Linux until they can be guaranteed no one will be able to alter or interfere with how their software operates (oppressively).
The issue with Linux going forward is software in general is all moving towards a more locked down, gatekeeping model. The iOS philosophy is infecting every space, from Android to Windows. Linux stands in opposition to that type of control over the user’s system, and therefore tech companies won’t develop for it if the trend continues.
Maybe. But there are third options as well - maybe if Adobe acts like you describe, and there is sufficient Linux adoption, that opens the door for an actual crossplatform competitor.
Or maybe they change their mind when not doing so costs them money.
Different OSes for different use cases. You have a job to do. Just use Windows.
If you want to use Linux, use it on your own machines on your own time.
That said, there are a few things you can do if you really want to use Linux:
- Test if the app works on Wine, Proton, etc. Even GPU accelerated apps can work, depending on the software/driver stack.
- Run a Windows VM and pass-through a GPU. That way you’ll get native performance on the app that’s GPU intensive. Use KVM and the CPU overhead will be negligible.
- If you’re doing 3D modeling/rendering, SFX, video editing or ML/AI, there are a lot of options on Linux. Some options that exist in Windows also have Linux versions.
For the life of me I cannot figure out how to run KVM locally. Every tutorial I’ve found is targeted at people doing servers.
All you need to do is insert the
kvmmodule and use something like QEMU to take advantage of it. I’d assume if you’re using QEMU then you’re using KVM by default.
I would like to try #2 but for some reason my 5900x doesn’t have graphics so I literally need to buy a whole other GPU for this
Yeah, you either need a separate GPU or a iGPU/dGPU that supports SR-IOV. Some Intel iGPUs support it, and allow you to make virtual GPUs that can be pass-through`ed to VMs.
If your work requires Windows, then use Windows. Switch to Linux when everything you need is available on it. If alternatives don’t exist, then that’s it.
FWIW, Photoshop and Illustrator generally work very well through Wine, not sure about CAD so I can’t comment on that.
In general though, yeah, if you have to use some super proprietary Windows-only software, you very well may be out of luck for Linux. In which case, yeah, you have to put up with Windows and jump through whatever hoops Microsoft wants you to jump through.
Me too, i even asked Autodesk about linux support and they pretty much said use IOS instead or come back when Linux has >5% market share.
Uh, yeah thanks for giving me an option just as shitty as the current system and practically saying “we charge you THOUSANDS per year for our product but we would rather do incremental updates on useless features because the core product is practically perfect instead of allowing competition to the MS/Apple monopoly”
As a gamer, I’m always going to have at least one Windows PC.
But I’m planning to upgrade next month, and turn my old PC into a non-gaming Linux rig for all non-gaming purposes.
I don’t play every game out there, but in the last couple of years, I’ve not had a reason to switch to Windows to play a game.
Most games these days seem to work fine on Linux, especially with all the work Valve has put in.
When I ran a dual-boot over June and July last summer only about 60% of my library functioned, so for me, it’s just not feasible to go entirely without Windows.
Same here. Its just a much better experience through windows. I made a new system for my daily driver which runs linux and I only turn on my gaming desktop when i want to game. I stream it through steam remote play and it works great
Basically every game without anticheat runs on Linux now
That wasn’t my experience, even with the various compatibility tools.
A lot do though.
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There’s Windows 10 LTSC, which gets security updates til 2027. And IoT Enterprise LTSC, which gets security updates until 2032.
“But should you even use those versions?!? They are not meant to be installed on a desktop PC/laptop” - idk, it’s either this or Win11.
For more info on how to install, check https://massgrave.dev/windows_ltsc_links
For what its worth: I’ve been running enterprise since 2015 (when it was called LTSB) then switched to LTSC IoT around 2021. Its fantastic and doesn’t have all the Candy Crush and other bullshit. I highly recommend.
That plus open shell is what windows 10 should have been.
My biggest concern for using the LTSB IoT is how long third-party application support will remain if Microsoft goes through with dropping support next year. I guess a lot of stuff still works under Windows 7 so maybe it will be fine?
I don’t expect but also won’t be surprised if it ends up being a Windows XP situation where they extend support for Windows 10 several times.
I don’t expect but also won’t be surprised if it ends up being a Windows XP situation where they extend support for Windows 10 several times.
They absolutely will, and they’re planning on this, they’re just not going to announce the true EOL date. The deadline will scare people into upgrading, then they’ll start extending it.
Guys there’s countless tools out there for removing bloat and telemetry and tweaking the UI. it takes like fifteen minutes to make windows 11 completely acceptable for daily usage
The problem is there are many things you can’t disable, remove, or alter, and that will continue to get worse over time.
Just because some bullshit is listed in Winaero Tweaker or whatever as an option to disable doesn’t mean all the bullshit in the system is listed there.
but don’t you lose gaming performance if you’re running newer hardware (I guess this might not matter to you)
What do you mean by that? You don’t lose gaming performance when you use win10 over win11. Why would you?
Man I could swear there was something. I thought it was DirectX12 that was exclusive to 11 but googling tells me im wrong. Maybe I’ve been on win 11 for no reason this whole time haha
Pirate a copy of windows 11 N. It’s the eu version that doesn’t have any of this dogshit in it.
Is there a “government” version or similar, where security is paramount? Like, how does MS sell windows 11 to the navy or whatever…?
Probably, but the activation of it would be stringent.
The issue with any Windows OS going forward, no matter what version, is that Microsoft detests local desktop computing now, and so much of it is being ejected to the cloud. That includes all the various methods of managing it for enterprise customers. They’re slowly working towards the Apple model where the OS basically can’t live in isolation. If it touches the internet, it will phone home and kill itself if told to.
Are we talking about Windows or me at this point?
Apparently, the navy is still using Windows XP on (some?) ships: https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2024/2/5/navy-looks-to-industry-to-digitize-ships
Then there’s this old classic when a navy “smart” ship was adrift for 2 hours after a Windows NT crash: https://www.wired.com/1998/07/sunk-by-windows-nt/
For locked-down devices, they’ll be running LTSC or LTSB editions (Long-Term Support Channel/Branch), or Windows Embedded, which are simplified and heavily customisable versions of Windows. For general-purpose devices, they’ll be using Pro or Enterprise versions of Windows which, crucially, support Group Policy. Using GP it is very, very easy for a single admin to configure an arbitrarily large number of Windows machines to work exactly how they want them to work, including configuration options that aren’t otherwise exposed to the end user in any way.
Edit: just to add: the lack of an equivalent of Group Policy is what is preventing Linux becoming widespread in businesses. If you think you know of a service for Linux that works like Group Policy, then you don’t know Group Policy.
I got out just before 11 released and had only been on 10 for a year or so. Military moves very slowly at rolling out the latest windows. I’d be extremely surprised if anyone who isn’t a very high rank running 11.
Last month, for the first time, Windows 11 was a more popular OS than Windows 10 in the Steam Hardware Survey. Of course, this is an imprecise science as people have to opt in to having their machines measured but it’s a sign of wider adoption. Windows 8, on the other hand, never made it big enough to do the same in its lifespan. Windows 7 was a very popular OS and adoption even to Windows 10 was fairly slow initially, partially down to that skepticism.
You can’t cite the jump from 7 to 8 or 7 to 10 without also remarking on the fact users had far more.control over updates back then.
Yeah, Windows 11 adoption is up, because most people don’t have a choice, or they didn’t care enough to stop it happening automatically, and don’t know how to roll it back. That doesn’t translate to approval.
At a certain point, adoption rates just don’t matter anymore because increasingly the user doesn’t have a choice anymore.
Of course, this is an imprecise science as people have to opt in to having their machines measured but it’s a sign of wider adoption
They already account for that.
They don’t, that quote is talking about the steam survey, which allows steam to read what OS the user is using. The point OP is making is that the only reason W11 is more popular than W10 is because Microsoft is forcing the update
Right, and Valve accounts for people choosing to not take the survey. That’s just how polls are typically conducted.
You know valve isn’t Microsoft right? Those are two different companies with different agendas?
Steam asking for consent for a survey doesn’t make up for the lack of consent in updates pushed by an entirely different entity
Right, and I’m not talking about Microsoft here. That’s why I only quoted the part about Valve’s stats and pointed out that it’s not necessarily an issue that users can opt-out of that statistics collection.
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Stop intimidating folks who just a computer that does work for them with “learn” linux as if linux is a programming language. Many linux distros are super user friendly and work exactly like windows UI.
Beside, why do you think iPhones, as dumb and as bloated and as restricted and limited and overpriced they are, still are the most selling phones worldwide year after year? It’s because my 80 yr old mom knows how to use it.
Most people and professionals in the world just want a machine to do their work and are not intrested in learning progamming or command lines to do it. Nurses, doctors and surgeons, non-computer engineers, artists, business managers, …etc, are too busy and occupied to even change the defaut settings or uninstall anything that comes with windows not because they love it but becuse not intrested and don’t care. Add to those groups most, actually all, girls I’ve ever met in my life. They have different hobbies and learning OSes is not of them. It’s like a girl saying “Soon Sephora will discontinue their HilightBrushExfoilioter and everyone who wants to wash their face needs to learn Mac’s DeepBeauty routines”. while dudes are like we know soaps but wtf is an exfoilating routine. Literally, they don’t know what linux is, and it’s not going to sell to tell them to learn.
So tl;dr: I’m saying the thing that sells would be Pop OS or Mint, or anything that requires the least or none learning curve.
While this is true, learning some kind of programming - shell scripting or BASIC in olden days - is a very useful endeavor.
It’s very convenient for everyone to be able to automate their work.
And it’s not particularly different from cooking something once in a while.
Not required at all to use Linux, of course.
Though for operating systems … People here for whatever reason downvote things they fear, but even OpenBSD is simple enough. It does require using shell, but as compared to any other desktop OS I touched that’s just really negligible and is usually a copy-paste from FAQ.
While this is true, learning some kind of programming - shell scripting or BASIC in olden days - is a very useful endeavor.
And learning sewing is useful, but I dont need it to wear clothes.
It’s not comparable to sewing. That would be learning C++ and Qt.
It’s comparable to making a sandwich.
How is learning C++ and QT not programming?
Golly.
C++ and QT is programming comparable to hard things in life.
Shell scripting is programming comparable to usual things in life.
Capisce?
No, making a sandwich is more effort equivalent to sending an email, or maybe adding items to a shopping site cart and buying them. Both are fairly intuitive and don’t involve memorizing weird commands like “ls” and “cd” (“cd? But my computer doesn’t even have a CD drive!”).
OK, making borsch is a more fitting analogy. With it being edible and not yielding muffled “heresy” cries from people from Eastern Europe.
Also you should be more creative with your sandwiches probably.
No, most people don’t need to learn shell scripting to browse the internet, play games, or send emails. Especially if they have jobs that don’t involve a lot of computer work. And it’s unfair to expect them to learn that just so they can use their computer as they were before.
Neither do I, but I do need shell scripting to automate tasks. I’m not against there being some visual user-friendly environment for doing that. That would be the right way to go, not saying people don’t need shell scripting. Something like Scratch.
the problem is so many office workplaces use windows and google, so unless you want to bring your own computer and buy a wifi hotspot to take to work, you’re stuck on windows and google
My work all takes place in a Linux environment. Unfortunately, my workplace still mandates using Windows.
I don’t require any Windows software for work. My boss just insists that I must use a Windows laptop, then do all of my work either in WSL or a traditional VM setup.
It’s baffling.
Security.
They want everything to be managed by Windows because they’re managing Windows themselves from Azure or Intune or whatever.
Corporate IT around the country is basically being instructed that the best and only viable security policies are the ones Microsoft writes, which also just so happen to involve all of their products exclusively. Insurance companies are starting to demand compliance with Microsoft’s security recommendations. It’s going to keep getting worse, and even though there should be heavy regulation on this monopoly, there won’t be.
And Google? I’m sure some companies use Google Apps for Business or whatevere they are calling it now, but the vast majority use Microsoft 365. Which does basically tie you to Windows, annoyingly. Especially if they are following industry and Microsoft best practices with MDM and Conditional Access.
lol we use google suite for email, calendars etc. but MS for SSO. our sister institutions mostly use MS 365, teams etc, so we also have to have all the MS crap in addition to the google crap
I only use the computer for word processing, internet, and playing roguelikes.
Fine. I guess I’ll learn Linux 😒
For those use cases, there’s very little actual learning to be done.
As someone who understands windows fairly well, but until recently couldn’t use the command line to save my life, I started dual booting Ubuntu and it’s pretty easy to figure out once you understand what you’re looking for. Only things I’m still trying to get running are alternatives for the stream deck software, iCUE, and voicemeeter, but I havem’t really invested much time into them yet.
Sometimes people get caught up trying to find exact matches for software, when instead it’s a combination of tools that gets the job done on another OS. The annoying thing is learning new toolsets – but it’s only annoying until you know them.
Yeah I don’t expect to get all the functionality in one piece of software, so I’ll have to cobble it together. Of course, icue depends on the .net framework so it’s not getting ported, and the other 2 just don’t have an official native linux app. Jack mixer is my current target for voicemeeter, but I have to start researching the others at some point.
Pipewire has some mixing functionality through tools like pwvucontrol, and graph connections through Helvum.
I’ll have to look into that. Thanks for the info!
Weirdly enough, .Net works relatively well on Linux (at least the core components). Parts of the framework are even various degrees of open sourced.
I do a lot of .NET development at work (back end web APIs). It’s all done in Linux via WSL2. All my code runs in Linux containers on Azure.
ICUE has a full replacement, I think it’s called CKB next, I can double check that once I’m home if I remember
I use it to manage my Corsair 12-button mouse and it actually has MORE features and is MORE usable than ICUE ever was
I had heard of CKB next, but I thought it was a general purpose RGB software. Good to know!
It is, I think?
It also does button mapping and supports Corsair shit out of the box, so it’s what I use it for. I planned to use it for the RGB portion as well but it didn’t support other devices and OPEN RGB is right there so I use that for lighting and CKB for mouse buttons and DPI config, smooth as butter experience compared to ICUE never fucking saving anything to memory no matter HOW HARD I TRY WHY ICUE WHY
I feel that pain in my soul! Sometimes my settings get applied, sometimes not, sometimes integrations work, sometimes not, sometimes the app updates properly, sometimes it breaks itself so windows doesn’t know it’s installed and won’t run it, but the installer thinks it’s installed, so it won’t repair it so I have to delete fucking anything I can find from icue, reinstall it, uninstall with revo, and then reinstall fresh and import all my saved profiles, which only sometimes work. Why the fuck is iCUE so goddamn shitty?!
I don’t like change! 😣
I’m a government contractor, so I’m stuck on Windows and Microsoft products for work. It really sucks, but the government ain’t switching to Linux anytime soon… if ever. At least Windows 11 Enterprise (or Government, whatever) should have a lot of this shit stripped out. I hope.
Usually at that scale you create images with all this crap removed. When deployment time comes, the machines are reimaged from local/state IT.
I feel bad for the average home user that, at this point views more ads than content, and all this telemetry collection to boot.
I use 11 and don’t see any ads and have telemetry turned off. I’m not sure where this is coming from, but I keep hearing it, and it doesn’t mesh with my experience.
I’ve personally thought about going back to Linux, and I still might next time I upgrade my MOBO, but the thought of all the effort it will take to get all of my hardware working again is exhausting. That was the greatest struggle before I even approached software issues. I’ve heard it is better these days, but I’m not an expert or a programmer, so I’m essentially relying that someone else has had my use case, solved it, and made it publicly available which is not always the case.
If it’s any consolation, and maybe just luck, but I almost have better luck with hardware not with windows.
That could very well be the case. I was on a beater laptop previously that was no longer functioning with windows and I needed something for school. I remember I that I wasn’t able to get the wifi card to work with Linux so I ended up getting an external card. It likely is different now and I have a proper desktop, but the experience was rough and I’m not eager to repeat it, lol.
Oh I remember those days. Having to find an extracted windows driver and using ndiswrapper to patch it in.
That, and I’m just proficient enough with computers to fuck shit up.
I made my move just recently. It was rocky, I ran into some issues and some of them were my fault.
I’m willing to put up with it currently not because Linux has gotten markedly better, but Windows has decided (yes, decided) to become significantly worse. Microsoft could have done nothing and I would have stayed a loyal, koolaid-drinking consumer of theirs.
I’m just starting out with Bazzite right now. Still awkward, but pretty painless, and all the gaming stuff like proton is already configured and baked in. I still need to figure out how to get stuff done though.
Serious question : My desktop is incompatible with Win11, I run Win10, and I use it for web browsing, Excel, and a little Word processing. Nothing else. Can’t i just continue on as is? Not a gamer, not a heavy user…
The problem with that is that vulnerability will be found and used. Since it’s connected to the internet it will be exposed to attackers and could be infected with botnet viruses/tools and used to attack other computer/services.
you’ll most likely be fine, there still exists people who use Windows 7 for that workflow. You have to be more aware of vulnerabilities that could be found on your operating system though; and over time more and more software might drop support for your OS (realistically, this will be more noticable when Windows 12-13 gets released) so you might not be able to use latest Office version’s features.
Thank you. I’m retired, and unlikely to upgrade Office. Ver 2016 still does exactly what I need to do.
I’ll keep my router secured, my firewall updated as long as it will, and anti virus /malware up to date.
Dual-boot Linux Mint, and install Microsoft fonts from the package manager to make documents more cross compatible. Should be a fairly easy migration for your use case. It took me about a year of dual booting to completely switch over to Mint, but it was worthwhile.
Look into Rufus, it will help you create a bootable USB with windows 11 and you can use it to do a upgrade or clean install from your windows 10 installation (clean install preferred IMO), it will even help bypass the hardware requirements and you can even remove the email account and use a local account. Make sure to use or write down your windows 10 activation/license for a clean install.
That being said you could potentially still run the old wondows OS, but as time goes on new exploits could be found that can compromise the OS. If its behind a firewall such as your router its safer, but there is still the possibility of it being infected way off into the future.
Here is a video of windows XP running on a PC connected directly to the internet with no firewall. Its infected almost instantaneously. (Dont try this at home).
Use Mint and it will be less frustrating.
How well does Excel run under Linux?
I switched to LibreOffice Calc. I program my sheets and don’t need all the bells and whistles of Excel.
If you’re using excel anyway, you’re probably not super worried about using non open source software. In which case, I find Google sheets to perfect. I use it for almost everything, because it’s just easier to use Google’s office suite for my school than it would be to use libre office, since everything backs up immediately across devices. I’ve never had any complaints about compatibility or format, and I’m literally being graded on my shit. I’d be preferable to use only open source software, from like a philosophical standpoint, but I also need things to function well in a world that expects automatic saving across devices and flawless compatibility to the arbitrary standard of Microsoft office
I’m using sheets provided by my GOOG work account already. Was just asking in case someone absolutely needs to have the thick client of Excel.
I think even web-Excel works well enough. I’ve used it recently through a sub provided by my university on my Mint laptop via Firefox.
You’re not getting anymore security patches, but as long as you keep your browser up to date and generally be careful about what you download and run (as you should already be doing) you’ll likely be just fine.
I’d estimate sometime around 2029 or so the major browsers as well as security software will start dropping support for Windows 10 and at that point you may need to start thinking about moving to something else if you haven’t already done so.
I can probably see a new computer by then… (my car hits 20 next year…) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
As a Linux user this and posts like this piss me off. Linux is NOT and WILL NEVER be a replacement for any other operating system (except maybe Minix). By implying Linux is the same or similar enough to Windows you bring in Windows users who except everything to be the same. Fundamentally thats not a good thing for anyone, Windows users get confused and maintainers are encouraged not to deviate from Windows even in ways that make the OS better (for example KDE not going all in on tiling to appease Windows users). In my option Linux shouldn’t be recommended to anyone. Linux software maintainers should focus on the core Linux userbase and people who want their OS to look and function exactly like Windows/MacOS should just use Windows or MacOS.
I just did my install of Linux Mint. I have a number of complaints that are really the fault of Microsoft, other things tripping me up that are just about me learning differences; BUT I still find there’s some things Linux could take as lessons.
One of them is keyboard shortcuts. I learned Windows shortcuts because they followed intuitive logic, like what role the “Tab” key has and what the Shift key is doing to adjust its action. Linux apps often make up their own logic around this, which even if it made sense internally, doesn’t work with apps like Firefox which are still using Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs, possibly to keep Windows parity. Then, since Linux is supposed to be built to customize, if I try changing the terminal to switch tabs using Ctrl+Tab…it just doesn’t let you; pretends you didn’t press anything. Stock boot of Linux Mint 22.
You’re right that they shouldn’t be changing just for aping the dominating competitor; that’s how we unfortunately got Chromium supremacy. I still think there’s gentle UX considerations they could handle more often though. Basically the type of thing decided in board rooms that engineers would lose interest in.
Only thing better than perfect is standard as they say, if everything uses the same shortcuts it doesn’t matter if they’re crap
I’ve kept most of the same logic from windows keybinds on my hyprland config because then when I have to use a windows machine it’s not completely backwards
This is…kind of stupid? There’s such a plethora of options in the Linux space for desktop environments, workflow customizations, configurability, etc. nothing is locked down by taking a Windows-style approach to a DE. Instead it follows a tried philosophy that’s only really been hampered by Microsoft’s decision to funnel users into an frustrating hole that removes the choice to disable or modify features you don’t like. KDE in particular has always been a Windows-style DE, and it’s currently one of the best options for modern features and extensive customizability. Hyprland is literally designed for linux enthusiasts. Gnome is the Mac analog, Xfce is your light-weight but functional, etc.
You’re upset because people are looking for more options? That’s bizarre. I came from Windows, but I guarantee my setup is different than someone else who comes from Windows because that’s the flexibility that’s offered. No one coming from Windows wants it to be exactly like Windows, they just want to be able to use their computer in a way that allows them to work, to play games, to watch media, etc. It’s a computer. It’s your computer. It should be able to do what you want.
Thats absolutely untrue, I see people complain all the time “Linux doesn’t look exactly like Windows therefore its not polished” or “Linux doesnt support every Windows app therefore its not ready”. When Linux users keep saying “Linux is a Windows replacement” or even implying it by suggesting it as an alternative to Windows 11 it creates expectations that can never be met. In addition im frustrated not because Windows users demand more options but because they demand less options. They demand one distribution to be “the Linux OS”, one singular desktop, and one way of doing things. Fundamentally when Windows users come in expecting Windows they have a Windows mindset.
Ah, my bad. I think I misunderstood your point and took you to be gatekeeping rather than just attempting to defend against misinformation or poor comparisons.
You’re right, it’s not a Windows replacement. It shouldn’t be expected that it’s analogous to Windows. My previous statement was coming from the expectation that people moving from Windows to Linux as their primary OS of choice was that they were explicitly looking for the advantages offered by it, rather than simply expecting to get away from Microsoft while needing to adjust to nothing new.
Ideally new Linux users would accept that things are different and we are starting to see it. Tiling window managers are gaining popularity especially with the announcement of the first true tiling (or rather dynamic) desktop environment (Cosmic). I think it would also be helpful if Linux users explained why things are different, sometimes its a lack of support (HDR, VRR, VR, etc) but sometimes like with anticheat there are good reasons for the absence. In addition the problem is that a significant amount of people want a “non-microsoft windows”. The solution is simple, people should view Linux in a way like MacOS (some windows apps don’t run but it has plenty of exclusive apps that don’t run on Windows).
To the Kwin maintainer, I can see why tiling isn’t a bigger deal. It’s not exactly about copying Windows; it’s more about not confusing most users. We already see tiling features, I’m sure they will figure out (1) more powerful features or (2) a way for other people to build off what they have. Let them cook.
I do agree that Linux will never be a Windows clone. There’s no purpose in copying decades worth of bad decisions. Windows isn’t great, it’s just always compatible with hardware.
How exactly is tiling confusing? If people were willing to accept that Linux functions differently then tiling can became just another thing to learn. Its objectivity more efficient then stacking so why not?
If the tiling is automatic and the users dont know how to change the size of the window manually (if that window manager allows that).
What if on the first boot the tiling could be explained by a welcome app (kinda like what KDE has), it would explain all of the shortcuts and then you could bring up all of the shortcuts with a simple shortcut. I personally use Sway and I think i3 based WMs are better, I believe on pretty much all i3 based WMs its as simple as super + r for resizing mode and esc to leave.
I have a lot of respect for Sway and wlroots developers. They contributed heavily to the desktop Linux ecosystem. However, if you need to explain that much at first boot; you may overload some users. I’m sure tiling in Plasma will get better as they splify configuration and figure out better defaults.
Well said. Then there is the entire ecosystem of programs and apps for which there is no real ability to install on Linux (and for which tools like Wine will either be buggy or even nonfunctional), and whose absence will just piss users off.
As much as I love Linux and BSD, it is really only for people who are either mentally geared to shift off of Windows or whose minimal needs won’t notice the difference; it is not a drop-in replacement for Windows.
For example, my octogenarian father has exactly such minimal needs except for one program: Quicken. Any bugs or issues running that as an installed desktop program on Linux would have him enraged and throwing the PC out the window. So he is still on Windows, and I am keeping my eyes open on how to properly neuter/excise Copilot once it drops.
When did PC Gamer start hijacking the back button to show more ads? Infuriating.
I just open things in new tabs with the mouse wheel click, then press ctrl-w to close the tab.
I don’t play their games
You can also mouse wheel click to close the tab.
Yeah but I’m already on the keyboard at that point. Easier for me to ctrl w to close the current tab then it is to move my hand and move the cursor to the tab then middle mouse again.
Very recently have I started in the habit of ctrl tab and ctrl shift tab to change tabs instead of even clicking them.
I’d love to throw the mouse in the garbage for day to day tasks tbh.
Yup, same, my workflow is very keyboard centric. But sometimes I’m just reading a bunch of stuff and scrolling (scrolling on anything other than my ThinkPad w/ trackpoint sucks IMO), so I already have my mouse in hand.
It’s good to have options. I figured someone may be unaware that you can middle-click to close tabs.
Yep good call. I’m usually on my phone where tapping the link and swiping to go back is the natural behavior. I can scroll up and close the browser instead but habits are hard to break.
Real talk.
I have been around long enough to know that this conversation has happened ever since Windows 7.
And each time and every time an OS EOL I spend time investigating a couple of Linux distros to try that switch.
This time is no different. From Redhat to Debian to Ubuntu to popOS to Mint. Each one is significantly better than the last.
But even 2024, I’m having to spend time inside the terminal to make the OS act more like Windows.
Tailscale has no native app. Gotta install it in the terminal. I want to use my touch screen in the browser to swipe the back button. Nope, I spent 2 hours on forums and ChatGPT and had to install something in the terminal. I was not successful. My Nvidia video card is not working properly. I gave up after.
Why am I spending hours trying to make my experience like Windows when Windows is right there. Sure sure, privacy and advertising yada yada. Install Adguard and disable services that you don’t agree with.
I deal with this issue every few years grappling with a new linux install. And then gaslighted into thinking it’s a non-issue when asking for help. “No big deal, just copy these long lines into the terminal to install this thing that would take a single click on Windows”. Like being obstinant is a virtue
So you’re saying you don’t spend hours on a new Windows install?
Or that things that take a moment on Linux may take half an hour on Windows, but God forbid it happens the other way around, unacceptable?
I mean, things that take a single click on Windows are apparently not all you do to make Windows usable, otherwise installing it and setting it up would take less time, right?
I’m having trouble seeing your point, would you kindly restate?
The point frankly was that I don’t see your point.
Unix-like systems have Unix shell as the most basic and universal interface.
If your point was that it’s a downside that it even exists, then you are basically saying that something you can’t use should be taken away from those who can. Not many allies.
I didn’t say it should be taken away, did I?
My first computer was all terminal, all the time. It was called the Commodore 64. After that, MS-DOS on an IBM PC (& compatible). I can do the typity-type. But most new adopters of tech aren’t using terminals or command lines… they’re using touch screens and voice commands.
Microsoft and Apple adapted, making their graphical user interfaces more robust, user-friendly, and compatible with modern workflows… and in turn, those workflows evolved syncretically. The terminal, or command-line, is still accessible, but it’s no longer the primary method for installing or accessing programs.
No Linux distribution that I know of has reached the same level of usability, and I think it’s because Linux is a platform built by nerds, specifically for nerds to use. I’m a massive nerd myself, but I can see how a lot of new users, who are used to being able to use their computer with just a mouse, would feel excluded and unable to invest the time to learn to adapt.
There’s no need for bad faith replies; there is nothing attacking nor scathing in my words.
Is my viewpoint unreasonable?
That’s not what I meant, I just took a leap from complaining about the usual advice in the Web involving CLI to the only way to prevent it - as in having some particular GUI as universal, if not more, as CLI, for advice involving it to work.
I mean, for example, in OpenBSD there are no distributions and X server is part of the base system, so they in theory could make a GUI configurator, but OpenBSD configuration is already much simpler than usual Linux, yes, with editing config files. It’s simpler than OpenWRT subjectively. That configurator likely wouldn’t be in demand.
In FreeBSD they still could have some GUI configurator maybe not completely official, due to there being no X11 in the base system, but still functional. Maybe that even exists.
But with Linux various distributions exist.
If you are talking about user-friendly GUIs fit to do various stuff in a particular distribution, OpenSUSE’s one is better than those proprietary things you mentioned. I think Mageia and Calculate Linux too had nice GUI configurations, and maybe OpenMandriva. Obviously Fedora has one, as the go-to “user-friendly” distribution, being from Red Hat and all.
No Linux distribution that I know of has reached the same level of usability, and I think it’s because Linux is a platform built by nerds, specifically for nerds to use.
So you have tried all in the list above and have this impression?
I hate GUI configurators due to my own personal issues with modern UI\UX. They make me anxious. But OpenSUSE’s one in particular even for me felt as good as it gets.
I have never spent hours on a Windows install. Full stop.
This is my routine. Install windows, sign in. Install tailscale. Change my trackpad settings. Done.
My Adguard takes care of the rest.
So you are an Edge user then, without any non-MS desktop software, I take it?
A lot of time we spend installing Unix-like systems is, well, picking unnecessary stuff, like themes, fonts, moving widgets on a taskbar, moving profiles for various software, like Firefox, qBittorrent, aMule … , setting up audio players.
If I could do that on Windows to any satisfactory result, I would.
If I don’t count that, installing the OS itself usually takes me like 15 minutes maybe. Not counting the time to write the image, or the time to free a partition, or something like that.
Yes, I use edge.
On Linux, you would get random things you have to fix. Oh, weird, the back button on my mouse doesn’t work in Firefox. Hm… Interesting, my Nvidia video card isn’t working correctly. Ummm, my laptop doesn’t go to sleep when I close it, but overheats it instead. Random shit like this.
No, I wouldn’t and I don’t.
Good thing you’re not me.
Maybe you’ve been sold a bit of a lie.
Linux is not like Windows. Linux will never be like Windows. It is first and foremost a general operating system, not necessarily a Desktop operating system.
IMO, that means you will never truly be able to completely avoid using the terminal here or there.
Telling people that it’s easy to switch from Windows to Linux is just not true. Linux just works differently and going in with the expectation that things will work the same way only serves to disappoint those brave enough to attempt the switch.
If you try again, go in with the mindset that you’ve never used a computer before, and without needing to depend on Linux for your day to day computer work. See it as a tinkering side project, and maybe it will stoke your curiosity enough that you’ll want to use it day to day.
Absolutely.
Don’t get me wrong. I am running headless Linux for my pfsense and home assistant. There is a place for Linux. But telling me I should ditch windows for Linux is basically asking me to stop using my PC how I normally want to and spend the next few weeks becoming a hacker only to give up and reinstall windows.
Because posts like these are fundamentally misleading, Linux isnt a Windows replacement nor is it meant to be (it also wouldn’t make sense since Linux is older then Windows, at least the NT kernel). Honesty if you’re trying to make Linux as similar to Windows as possible just use Windows.
If you still have time & energy to troubleshoot you can create posts for your issues. ChatGPT may give incorrect advice.
I switched because my OS drive was HDD and Win10 was slow & unstable. The background tasks of Win put heavy load on the PC because I didn’t have an SSD. Linux was also slow but a bit more bearable, plus it was stable. Did an SSD upgrade years later.
You can achieve the same thing by installing Tiny11.
