• traveler01@lemdro.id
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    1 year ago

    Turns out that building a society where money and career determines your social status and doing unpaid work like taking care of a family and raising children is not valued at all and even very expensive makes people choose to have less or no children.

    In my country the state taxes the shit out of us while pays for the children of non-working people (there’s a shitload of subsidies going into their pockets), so that doesn’t help at all. What people need is money in their pockets, so having a children doesn’t bankrupt a family.

    • WittyProfileName2 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      pays for the children of non-working people (there’s a shitload of subsidies going into their pockets),

      Do children deserve to starve because their parents aren’t employed?

      • traveler01@lemdro.id
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        1 year ago

        Do children deserve to starve because their parents aren’t employed?

        Because they don’t want to work. There’s enough jobs.

          • traveler01@lemdro.id
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            1 year ago

            Why the American flag. How do you know I’m speaking about US?

            Get a grip.

            • ElHexo [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Because the US is one of the best examples of your desire to see the children of poor and unemployed people starve?

              “G-g-g-get a grip, I don’t like my shitty views being challenged and I can’t actually defend them”

              Mate if you’re going to post dumb shit you probably should have a better response than that.

              I’m assuming you’re not actually very dedicated to the idea of starving children, that’s just something you’ve heard and parroted because your own economic status is precarious

              • traveler01@lemdro.id
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                1 year ago

                because your own economic status is precarious

                So you pretty much called me dumb because I’m poor?

                And also, that since you don’t agree with my economic views, Im just “brainwashed”? Seriously? That’s your argument? Seriously, go see the world, every country that actually applied your way of thinking ended up having a lot more children starving than the ones who apply my views.

                State shouldn’t be taxing workers because some morons who decided to have children when they’re not supposed to don’t want to go work for 7$ a hour. Get a fucking grip and grow up “mate”

                • ElHexo [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  You’re poor because you’re one or two crippling events away from poverty, you’re dumb because you’re choosing to be.

                  I’ve been to the US and the level of poverty is horrific. Meanwhile China has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty.

                  The idea of “brainwashing” came from returned American POWs who learned that they were getting a shitty deal from American capitalists who profiteered while the soldiers were firebombing Asia, so no, I don’t think you’re brainwashed. I think you’re a classic middle-class westerner attacking the poor because you see yourself as part of the actual wealthy class even if you’re not. You might have to examine why you’re not on $7 an hour, or if you were born unlucky, $2 a day.

                  Finally we see the true LIB emerge - eugenicist takes on how poor people shouldn’t have children, and then how their children (who didn’t actually consent to be born) should be punished for that

                  Cool viewpoints child starver

        • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          people deserve to starve in an age of plenty

          this pigbrained subhuman cruelty betrays you as an american citizen, thank god your shithole is in decline lol you should all rot and die there for the good of the world

          • Asafum@feddit.nl
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            1 year ago

            Can you maybe not see entire groups as the same?

            There are Americans that routinely get sent to jail protesting/fighting to change America for the better every day. There are those of us in this very thread that agree with you calling the other commentor a pigbrained subhuman. The strict adherence to an absolutely shit narrative given to them by Reich Wing Media disgusts a large portion of our population.

            It’s not entirely our fault that propaganda is so effective at keeping the absolute worst possible people in office and rotting the brains of our neighbors. The blame rests on the oligarchs and ultra wealthy assholes looking to divide and conquer, turning all of us against each other while they laugh all the way to their 3rd private island…

          • Archlinuxforever@lemmy.3cm.us
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            1 year ago

            I only had to read this one comment to know that you’re a tankie who probably worships every little thing the Kremlin and the CCP say.

          • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            America falling apart would be horrifyingly destructive for the rest of the world, for it will allow other corrupt capitalist powers that are, let’s be honest, not as humane, take over the rest of the world.

            Then again, the destabilization of the U.S. is well under way and our collapse is inevitable so I guess disputing it is a moot point.

            • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              America falling apart would be horrifyingly destructive for the rest of the world, for it will allow other corrupt capitalist powers that are, let’s be honest, not as humane, take over the rest of the world.

              Well technically the continuation of america is more destructive than its inevitable decline, since america has a very awful pattern of killing millions of people for the enrichment of its elite, via means such as invasions, installing genocidal puppet leaders, and corporate extraction. The worst part is that america often destroys countries just as their people are on the brink of greater liberation.

              Notable examples include:

              Installing the Taliban in Afghanistan to oppose a Socialist government then destroying it

              Destroying Iraq for Oil

              Helping quash the Protocommunist Taiping Rebellion in China

              The current blockade of Cuba

              The current blockade of North Korea

              The murder of socialist president Salvador Allende in Chile and the installation of Pinochet, a neoliberal dictator

              The Contras

              Sending $3 billion a year to isntreal for the mass killing of Palestinians

              The genocide of first nations peoples on the North American continent itself

              Assassinating Fred Hampton and the political killings of the Black Panther Party

              Meddling in the affairs of practically every single third world country on Earth

              Fucking Monsanto and their land grabbing bullshit

              It is also probably the most inhumane of the corrupt capitalist powers as revealed in the details of these genocidal ventures either by using its own weapons or by proxy.

              As such, the death of america would enable the possibility of a flourishing of socialist nations without the threat of the worlds most powerful military brought to full bear against their people for daring to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

              • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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                1 year ago

                If US hegemony ended today, it would mean immediate war between Saudi Arabia & Iran, China & Japan/South Korea, Russia & the former Soviet states, and probably China & India eventually. The US is far and away the most powerful military in the world, and without the threat of the US military intervening on behalf of its allies, those conflicts are nowhere near as one-sided as they are today.

                For example, see what happened as the Ottoman Empire & European colonial empires collapsed at the beginning of the 20th century. Then scale that up from a 2.3 billion global population to 8 billion.

                Whatever you want to say about the crimes against humanity committed in the maintenance of US hegemony, I will agree with you, but that doesn’t mean for a second that the alternative is better. Be careful what you wish for and all that.

                • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  If US hegemony ended today, it would mean immediate war […] The US is far and away the most powerful military in the world, and without the threat of the US military intervening on behalf of its allies, those conflicts are nowhere near as one-sided as they are today. […]

                  See, the problem here is that all the potential apocalyptic conflicts between american allies and other nations are contingent on the existence of american foreign meddling in the first place. The global conditions of multipolarity between now and WW1 are different. The reason for animosity between america’s allies and their neighbors is that the neocolonial western powers, headed by america, are using these allies as pawns, puppets to further their own interests within these regions against its enemies. It would instead be more accurate to say that if america’s enemies were weaker militarily and economically, america would be able to swoop in and destroy their people via a combination of hard and soft power using its allies as forward operating bases. I am not saying that the enemies of america are perfect nations, however, in the absence of american meddling, they have been shown to pursue more peaceful and mutually beneficial international relations with neutral nations, as opposed to outright warfare and economic genocide, as america does.

                  As such, if there is no america, then there would be no threat of slaughter for its enemies through its allies, and therefore there would be no more reason for the sort of animosity that could spiral into a nuclear war. The enemies of america, due to their position, are generally intelligent geopolitically, and do not possess the historical legacy of being colonial empires. If america truly fell, then they won’t start wars against a now nonexistent enemy for no good reason.

                  Whatever you want to say about the crimes against humanity committed in the maintenance of US hegemony, I will agree with you, but that doesn’t mean for a second that the alternative is better.

                  This is a common argument for a neoliberal status quo: “Well sure we know global regime X is shit and kills millions of people per year, but hey, all these strawman alternatives are bad so in the end, There Is No Alternative.” It’s been overused by conservative politicians to the point that its a slogan: TINA. However, we must realize that there are multiple alternatives, including the building of a better world.

                  Be careful what you wish for and all that.

                  Its going to collapse anyways over the next century or so, we do not need to wish for anything.

                  • SwampYankee@mander.xyz
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                    1 year ago

                    I can’t say I particularly disagree, however I think you’re overestimating the moral character of states in general. If US hegemony erodes over a “century or so” I think that is a manageable course of events rife with opportunities for building a better world, as you say. If, on the other hand, the US were to suddenly become incapable or unwilling to fill its role as global hegemon, the resulting power vacuum would undoubtedly effect chaos.

                    I hope for a graceful retreat from imperialism into some sort of international socialist utopia… but history isn’t exactly reassuring.

              • pinkdrunkenelephants@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                …Until Russia and China start doing literally the same things if not worse. Russia wouldn’t hesitate to nuke countries that wouldn’t play ball with it, for example.

                • DoobKIller [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Russia wouldn’t hesitate to nuke countries that wouldn’t play ball with it

                  That opinion has no basis in reality, there’s one country that has used nuclear weapons aggressively and it’s isn’t russia

                • ElHexo [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Americans and projection, name a better duo.

                  China has a no first nuclear use policy, and the USSR/Russia used to but dropped it down to threats to territorial integrity.

                  The United States has refused to adopt a no first use policy and says that it “reserves the right to use” nuclear weapons first in the case of conflict.

                  Both NATO and a number of its member states have repeatedly rejected calls for adopting a NFU policy, as during the lifetime of the Soviet Union a pre-emptive nuclear strike was commonly argued as a key option to afford NATO a credible nuclear deterrent, compensating for the overwhelming conventional weapon superiority enjoyed by the Soviet Army in Eurasia.

                  The US has also repeatedly planned for first strikes and escalated tensions: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/10/jfks-first-strike-plan/376432/

                • SuperNovaCouchGuy2 [any]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Until Russia and China start doing literally the same things if not worse.

                  Probably not, China is on record, better than the United States in that it does not destabilize burgeoning socialist governments nor engage in one-sided business deals with third world nations to cripple them with debt like how the west does in Africa. Furthermore, they have no historical precedent of engaging in genocidal colonialist ventures in countries halfway around the world from them. If China were top dog they would just be free to expand mutually beneficial international relations at a greater rate then they are doing now without fear of america and its allies nuking them for stepping out of line.

                  Russia, on the other hand, is truly a failed state that is also in decline. They have a dogshit military that can’t even take a small pissant nation headed by a film star right on its border. It is very unlikely that Russia, in its current form, will be able to reach the same level of economic and military domination that america currently possesses.

                  Fundamentally, one of the other reasons why China and Russia are unlikely to do the same things is because they are not settler-colonial nations born from genocide. The ideology of Manifest Destiny, invading a militarily inferior nation, slaughtering every single one of the people there, plundering its resources, and settling the land for the sake of “Personal Freedom” (the American Dream), is a unique historical pattern that the very idea of america as a nation is contingent on.

            • BeamBrain [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              America falling apart would be horrifyingly destructive for the rest of the world, for it will allow other corrupt capitalist powers that are, let’s be honest, not as humane, take over the rest of the world.

              This is what every imperial power says about itself

        • BeamBrain [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Capitalism by its nature has an interest in keeping part of the working class unemployed. Look up “reserve army of labor”.

    • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      When you work 8 hours a day, have 1 hour lunch break, waste 2 hours commuting, to earn barely enough of what Adam Smith considers ideal (twice the cost of living), it’s hard to sustain a second person, much less a third that requires near constant monitoring for over 7 years.

      From a pure economic perspective, a child is a total money sink for at least 18 years. In many places (mostly urban), it’s simply not viable to have one.

        • Duamerthrax@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Short term, raise the minimum wage. Force walmart to fill the gaps between what they pay and what their workers need to live. Right now, it’s the government is subsidizing that gap.

          • Asafum@feddit.nl
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            1 year ago

            Gigantic mothefucking emphasis on short term.

            Our piece of shit, bought and paid for politicians LOVE to pull the “we’re fighting to raise the minimum wage from X to Y!” but only over such a long timeline that the value of Y equals what X was… God forbid the Job Creators™©® have to ever actually pay more.

            • Duamerthrax@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Agreed, but getting an increase in minimum wage would get the ball rolling on other worker right reforms.

            • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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              1 year ago

              Because rich assholes need to feel speshul, so they waste money on lobbying to ensure those below them never get anywhere

                • Duamerthrax@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  We kinda need lobbying and it would be very hard to effectively criminalize it. It would just move father into the back rooms. When I say we need it, groups like the EFF, NAACP, FFRF and ACLU all have lobbying arms.

                  A different idea proposed by Lawrence Lessig would be to remove elected officials from the legislative branch and replace it it something like the Jury Duty system from the court systems. While not perfect, it would be much harder to bribe a constantly rotating group of civilians and most people will vote in their interest even when it’s against their party alignment on a case by case bases.

                  Lobbyists would become like courtroom lawyers either pushing for or against certain laws in a public settings.

            • Duamerthrax@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor.

              The rich can pay lobbyists to pay politicians.

              • traveler01@lemdro.id
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                1 year ago

                Never understood why nobody ever does a BLM-like protest but against lobbyism.

            • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              The US government already subsidizes companies like Wal-Mart and Amazon because they force their lowest-paid employees to apply for food stamps even though they work.

    • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      the children of non-working people

      Your wording alone demonstrates exactly what SloppyEngineer said about unpaid work not being valued at all.

      • traveler01@lemdro.id
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        1 year ago

        In my country, some get a minimum wage from just being at home, plus they get a subsidy for each kid they have.

        While the working class gets only a small subsidy for each kid (the higher your income the less you get).

        • FreeLunch@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          But how high is the rate of unemployment in your country? In Germany it is really low, so it probably costs a working person only a few euros per month to support all children of unemployed persons. Not sure if it is worth it to not help these children as they are already severely disadvantaged. Not to mention it can be seen as an investment in these children.

          • traveler01@lemdro.id
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            1 year ago

            Now much, but people get basically a minimum wage from the state without any effort, so why work at all?

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              You would be surprised how many people actually cost the state money instead of bringing in money via tax in some countries. The problem isn’t the few unemployed people who could potentially work, the problem is that wages between high earners and low earners are out of proportion.

            • candybrie@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Incentivizing people to have children is pretty important for a society to continue on. Most societies are based around there being more young people than old people. When you reverse that, you historically don’t have enough people working to keep the country chugging along.