This is what happens when US car media grabs “non automotive” news and runs with.
Whatever you may think when reading that headline. What it means is simply what has been regurgitating in the german landscape for 1-2 years, ever since the green party got into goverment.
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Their all in diplomacy on renewables, neglecting people and economy. The latter claiming that GERMANY as a place of production at 40 €cents/kWh with tendencies to go upwards is not viable and there could be an exodus of competent workforces.
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China’s emerge on the EV market. Since VW, as everyone else, starting from 0, and having to compete with chinese automakers, who are getting batteries cheaper and the cost to produce them also being lower due to employers and energy costs.
All that makes it very hard for VW to remain VW without cannibalizing Audi.
This may or not be a foreshadowing, maybe even a slight threat, of shutting down german facilities and opening hem in Thailand, China, Vietnam - wherever.-
I’m not surprised. Why would you want to import a German economy car. The quality is not good enough to warrant premium prices.
Eh, they’re made in Tennessee and Mexico for NA. Not really an import.
mk 8 gti/r are now back in wolfsburg factory.
Then someone should explain that to VW because they sure aren’t priced that way.
well yes, makes sense. A VW ID3 starts at 42,000 eur, this is meant to be the EV Golf but it costs as much as an SUV ( or more )
the id3 isn’t even golf sized though, which is insane
they need to just have an EV Golf and they got all weird about it with the stupid “id” branding
Why is this comment so popular on cars. Hatchbacks have similar cargo space as crossovers but the lower ride height is far more engaging to drive. This belief that crossovers are more premium is why Americans are stuck with boring fucking cars.
Someone as clueless to not understand that shouldn’t be on this subreddit.
classic reddit indignation, love it
Americans like crossovers because our roads are shit
Because 99% of people don’t care about an engaging drive and new cuv’s handle way better than a normal sedan from 10 years ago anyways. The limit of grip is still way higher than most people will ever get to. I’ve always driven older enthusiast cars and I couldn’t believe how well my wifes new rav4 handles compared to my old cars.
You can’t just lump together all 10yr old sedans. Just because you had a 2013 Camry with worn out suspension that rode worse than your new CRV, it doesn’t mean a brand new E92 BMW 3 series handles worse than your CRV. Limits of grip is one small aspect of handling. Feedback, responsiveness, nimbleness, chassis dynamics are all part of the equation. Lower center of gravity is still a key factor in that. There’s only so much you can do to counter the laws of physics.
You’re missing my point handling is on the bottom of the list of wants in a car for the vast majority of people buying cars. Most people buy a cuv/suv for more room for kids, camping, carrying more goods, people etc. It’s just a better vehicle for most people. I’ve always had fun cars as a dd and I never felt like the rav 4 was bad handling wise. Handles very flat and feels more confident than my Saab 9-2x on turn in.
Why is this comment so popular on cars.
As a comment it’s pretty aware of what the market wants? When given the choice most people (which is what we’re discussing) choose a plainer crossover over a better handling hatchback.
It’s not like the ID3 is some amazing ride or anything anyway.
The ID3 is massive. People call it a hatchback due to it’s shape but it’s 6.1 cm taller than a Golf. It’s closer to a Tiguan than to a Golf.
The comment i was making wasn’t aimed at SUV vs Hatch but more to show how overpriced the ID3 is. The TIguan is 11,000 euros LESS than a ID3. Passat is 12,000 euros Less than ID3 and the Arteon is 12,200 eur less than the ID3. It’s truly bonkers
No one does cross shopping for ICE and electric with sticker prices. They look at true cost of ownership. Once you factor in the gas costs and the fact that there’s less maintenance and mechanical parts required with electric cars, the electric car is usually more cost-effective.
It’s foolish to cross-shop ICE and electric with sticker prices. It’s pertinent to consider true cost of ownership. Once you factor in the gas costs and the fact that there’s less maintenance and mechanical parts required with electric cars, the electric car is usually more cost-effective.
That is until you factor in the cost to replace the batteries, which is in the tens of thousands for VWs, which probably outweighs the cost of gasoline, depending on when they fail.
Somewhere else in this thread that cost of replacement batteries was being discussed in a far more knowledgeable fashion than what I could.
Here’s some quick maths: $50 per week on gas, times 52 weeks per year is only $2600, multiplied by 5 years is still only $13k.
The replacement battery cost is at least $20k.
Oil changes at $50, 4 times a year, or every 3 months, and a whole new set of GOOD tires ($1200) brings the grand total to $16,200 for maintenance for 5 years.
That makes the electric vehicle more expensive to own, plus factoring in that you have to pay that $20,000 all at once, as if everyone has that laying around to shell out for car repairs. Plus the cost of electricity to charge your EV every month. I have a car with an ICE, so I have no idea how much that costs to charge your EV, but it’s definitely a non-zero amount, however cheap it may be.
I would rather buy a hybrid than an EV. I’m not willing to deal with a $25K+ batter replacement, a charging network that isn’t Tesla’s, or the disappointing fit and finish that Teslas come with out of the factory.
Economy pricing has faded away but more importantly the quality of the drive did too. Paying a bit more, compared to rival makes/models, for a better driving car was their bread/butter. The moment Jettas no longer came with independent rear suspension (GLi excluded) they no longer had a niche. Why pay more for a econo-box when a cheaper competitor handles and drives as good or better?
Then they started reducing their available models. If they weren’t losing market share to rival brands they were cannibalizing among their own brands.
As a VAG enthusiast in the NA market, this was obvious years ago. Small bit of hope that the fool(s) at the top are recognizing it, finally.
My VW dealer barely has stock, meanwhile the Audi that is 100 feet away is packed with cars.
I see a lot of Atlas and Taos on the road. I think the Toas and Atlas Sport are cannibalizing Tiguan sales. I see a some GTIs in my area but not as many as previous generations. The price is just outrageous for what you get.
I really have been thinking this whole line is just an excuse to soften the blow of his immediate sentence afterwards: they will be cutting staff at VW and providing early retirement benefits. It’s something to point at instead of the slowing EV market and new car sales in general. Bad fed decisions and high interest rates mixed with poor dealer pricing means slower sales.
100%
Aside from the golf, vw are too expensive and have ugly interiors and exteriors. They need to go back to what made them a big successful company. Selling cheap, simple reliable cars.
Aside from the golf
Ngl i think the golf is ugly as hell. Greay car mechanically but I cannot get over the exterior. Egg shape exterior with a boy racer skin. The S4 and TT are significantly better looking practically be damned.
Have you been in an Atlas. They’re much nicer interior wise and actually undercut the competition in pricing.
Trying to get near luxury car prices for what is supposed to be bargain vehicles is shoddy business practice, imo. For example, I love the golf and it’s faster versions. Why not offer the GTI for cheaper and fuck is up with markups for the golf R? Hell I can save up a bit more and go for an m340i instead.
Chris Harris compared the Golf R to the m340i. They were similarly good as a driver’s car. But only one of them gives you the practicality of a hatch back.
So many annoying headlines like this lately with CEOs whining about the current state of the market as if we should feel bad for them.
News flash: The economy sucks and has sucked for regular people. We can’t afford normal housing let alone some overpriced, uncompetitive half-baked smartphone on wheels.
The writing was on all the wall during the past 5-6 years of record profits. They’ve been sitting fat and happy despite knowing the market would be changing, for better or for worse. These guys are just wiping their tears with money.
True. In Germany, the only things you read are “The car industry is going down!” for 364 days a year and on 1 day, you read “German automakers with record profit.”
Fuck this. They need a reality check and they have to go back to producing good cars again. Simple as that.
Are the “record” profits adjusted for inflation?
maybe this is the German way of corporate motivation
So many annoying headlines like this lately with CEOs whining about the current state of the market as if we should feel bad for them.
Schaefer isn’t whining. Did you even read the article? He said that internally to gain support for the savings program.
They’ve been sitting fat and happy despite knowing the market would be changing, for better or for worse.
I don’t actually know the profit margin or investments that VW did over the past 6 years (as if that would reflect current offerings anyways), but it sounds like you don’t know either.
You’re very right - I did read the article (surprisingly) but was sort of just venting frustration over how many similar headlines I’ve read lately. It was less about the VAG boss in particular.
I do feel bad for all the folks that will likely be laid off due to their inability to bring something competitive to market.
Short answer: They’re profitable (In the billions), but on a company that big their profit margins are very slim, about 7%.
People see a profit of 16-20 Billion and think the company must be rolling in it, but as a percentage they’re not doing great and I can see why the CEO is concerned.
Schaefer’s actually talking about the Volkswagen brand, which is even worse, at around 3% — Audi and Porsche are doing fine, but they’re being dragged down by Volkswagen. A bigger problem for Volkswagen right now is they invested wildly into EVs, and are now having trouble justifying those expenses while their AV and SDV efforts flounder. Not long ago the committed figure was a staggering $193B for all three, which means they have a lot of cars to sell.
What do you mean by AV and SDV?
Yeah 3% is bad, as in a slight change of the prime rate and you’re bankrupt bad. I’m not surprised they’re in cutback mode.
I mean, sitting in a few of them recently, he’s right. That “German fit and finish” in their current lineup isn’t class leading anymore, all while VW still charges a premium for it.
I was cross-shopping a GTI with a Civic Si and a Mazda 3 Sport Turbo, and the GTI, each in their top trims, and the final prices came out to $38,000 for the Si, $40,000 for the Mazda 3 Turbo, and $45,000 for the GTI (prices in Canadian). The GTI had the cheapest feeling interior of the three, all while likely having the highest cost of ownership and weakest long term reliability of the three. I went into it thinking the GTI would be the front runner, and honestly it left me feeling pretty disappointed.
This goes through their entire lineup. Each vehicle in each segment costs a couple grand more than the competing Mazda, Honda, and Toyota, but it just doesn’t feel like you’re getting more car for that extra money. The Tiguan doesn’t feel noticeably better than a RAV4, CRV or CX 5. The Atlas didn’t feel like a step up from a Highlander or Pilot. VW still costs you a little bit extra for the “German premium tax”, and I just don’t see what that tax gets you, asside from generally weaker long term reliability and resale value.
Sitting in the new golf, it sucks. The clutch is too heavy and the shifter feels like absolute shit. The infotainment is awful and the seats were very uncomfortable. Every other sports car I sat in was better.
Volkswagen interiors somehow feel like the worst of the bunch.
This is so true.
The gap between the mainstream Japanese and at this point even the Korean makes and VW is just too small now.
Same thing I did. Went with the turbo for the AWD and comfort. I do miss the 6spd, but not that much
Thing is the new EA888 is quite reliable. For the amount of power and fuel economy that it makes it’s great. All three of those cars are reliable enough that I wouldn’t worry about the minute differences of which one is slightly more reliable.
I had a 2013 VW CC and the EA888 wasn’t all that good for me. I had to spend $1400 one time to fix leaks everywhere, $700 on a new radiator bc the car would leak coolant like crazy, was leaking again after only a 2 years since the leak fixes, burnt oil, and my gas mileage was crap even though I had replaced all the ignition components, often ran fuel system cleaners, ran premium gas, and drove fairly slow/moderately. Plus the car had enough shit break that could only fixed at the dealer that I went japanese and traded it in
that was an older generation of the ea888, different from the mk7 and mk8
Makes sense lol I expected worse to be honest, I heard so many bad things about VW that I was fully counting on needing a few water pumps
I thought they had water pump issues.
Is that still going on? I remember it being an issue over a decade ago
yes
Lmao damn
Thing is the new EA888 is quite reliable.
Did they fix the oil consumption issues?
Yes and timing chain. I’d rather have the 2.0 gen 3 or later over anything modern Toyota is putting out simply because it has all of the tech refined (reliable) after generations of modernization AND it puts down serious power.
Seems fixed for the Gen 3 EA888
I’ve been driving an EA888 powered car in some form or another since 2017 (mk7 Golf, now a B9 A4) and the only issue I’ve had is the Golf having a turbo going out from a bad production batch, replaced under warranty.
This is similarly why I went with an Integra A-Spec. Less power than a Golf, but it feels so much nicer inside.
VW doesn’t even get to charge a premium for being german anymore. Most north american VWs are built in mexico or tennessee and you can tell. The 2 best NA VWs - Golf R and Arteon - are built in Germany.
mk8 gti built in germany
The materials used are just cheaper than previous generations, assembled in Mexico or Germany has zero impact on that.
The SI only has one trim you silly goose.
That being said, it’s easily the most refined/best looking and feeling of the 3 you mentioned, and the stick is better than anything south of a Porsche. The current civic really reminds me of the old e46 in many ways. It’s just a great little car. Meanwhile the gold is disqualified IMMEDIATELY thanks to the interior “button” choices and infotainment.
That being said- god is it slow. I came from a long line of BMWs, the last two were 335is… This thing is just so fucking slow.
But hey! Besides that and the INFERNAL rev hang that nearly all manual specced cars have these days, it’s great.
If you’re used to 5 seconds to 60 (or faster), you may very well be regretting your purchase
I don’t think you even need to have gotten used to cars as fast as that. Depending on the outlet, the 0-60 can be closer to 8 seconds than 7 seconds. That’s average car slow, that’s Mazda 3/ Corolla slow. I know the Si has always been about the sports experience more than raw speed, but that’s just crazy especially since it’s been the same since like 2009.
I agree. I test drove the car and I was all giddy playing with the stick for the first time in a long time.
Nearly one year in, I regret it. It’s a great car but it just doesn’t have enough power. It looks absolutely amazing in my opinion easily one of the best looking sedans on sale by any manufacturer, including premium, the interior design is also top-notch in my opinion, including premium (for handsome styling not for materials), and everything the enthusiasts say about the driving experience is pretty much on point.
But the engine note and engine power do the opposite of “rustle your jimmies” once that new car smell wears off and you’re left to hear the engine and feel the speed…
Again, I read the reviews I did the research and I longed for the car for almost a year. I thought the speed just wouldn’t matter but it does.
Random sidebar here, but this exact car with a BMW B58 shoved under the hood powering some type of rear wheel drive tranny would be an absolute dream. Perhaps instead of getting the Cayman I want to get for my next car I will just spend an asinine amount of money shoving a straight six into this thing instead…
that’s Mazda 3/ Corolla slow.
Rude :(
Same internally as well. Internal competition between something like a Macan and Q5. Very very very similar vehicles, performance and spec wise, Macan is significantly more expensive and needs to be optioned out.
I know there’s the excuse of “Porsche is expensive to subsidize the ability to customize” and that makes sense but only so far.
yeah towards the end of the mk7 run, VW was already going hard on cost cutting. then the mk8 came out and it was even more so. a 2015 mk7 vs a new mk8, the quality feels worse on the new mk8.
Yep it all went downhill after they killed the analog gauges.
We recently test drove a RAV4 with a high end trim, the Tiguan of similar kit, and the CX5. We bought the CX5. My buddy looked at a 4 door golf or the new Kia sport sedan (the 5 I think it’s called?) He bought the Kia. VW just doesn’t have the shine anymore
I had a 2014 Passat and when Compared to a 2014 Accord or Camry it was a much, much nicer place to be, with a much smoother engine. But then i saw the 2021 Passat, 20 Accord, and 20 Camry, and was not at all impressed by the Passat.
VW has done a ton of cost cutting in their interiors of late. The MK8 GTI is a noticeably less nice place to be in when compared to the MK7, crappy touch controls aside. Their whole lineup is a step back from what they used to be.
Translation: We relied too heavily on our Russian oligarch friends for our supplies and its now causing us to raise prices because their boss man is on a power trip.
Their supply chain in question was actually in Ukraine.
Nah, Russian gas is the beginning middle and end of the German story
Yet they continue to export shit to russians via other puppet states, bypassing blocking laws designed by them. Sometimes i think we need a world wide french revolution. Actually i know we need it.
Company makes worse product for more $, confused why they are no longer competitor. More at 11:00pm.
He didn’t seem confused though
Well, first things first, don’t cut costs heavily to the point where you’re sacrificing profits and, eventually, the VW company’s well-being in the long term and as much as the accounting dept. won’t like the sound of this: Invest more into quality—especially the fit and finish/materials used.
THEN,
- Invest in the science of innovating, as while it may be costly, it can pay off as long as it’s done correctly. Innovation gives a company a serious competitive advantage. Try new things and let the engineers do the talking. Be ahead of that game.
- Make your cars feel like they’re worth the money, both on the inside and out. Focus on offering genuinely great vehicles with a solid bang for the buck. VW should refrain from overpricing and acting like they can command near-Audi money on some of their products. It’s a shame the Touareg (in the US) and Phaeton turned out the way they did. Great products that are otherwise let down by Audi-esque pricing. Also, make unique, genuinely fun & interesting offerings, as those are what draw more people into the brand, like the ID Buggy and whatnot. Bring back the Beetle as an Easy-to-work, stylish EV. Focus on value and punching above the weight. You guys are Volkswagen, after all, the people’s car.
- Don’t put all the eggs in the BEV basket, as the market for BEVs is uncertain. Still continue to experiment and develop alongside ICE powertrains. Focus on hybridization if need be.
- Design cars with more classiness and character in the exterior. Hire a fusion of talent and have them experiment. I suggest outsourcing the design to talent like Ian Callum or even ex-Bugatti designer Sasha Selipanov. Encourage and effectively use more talent.
- Make your interiors warm and comfortable, lovely places to be in. Your interiors should be ergonomically friendly, with no haptic buttons and slider control BS. Simple, genuinely well-built interiors that will stand the test of time.
- Do what Subaru is doing and eliminate markups, overpricing, and ADMs, which mainly turn off buyers from any brand.
Yeah I’m not sure what happened to VW. Our family was exclusively VW for many years. Wife had a GLI and I’ve had 2 wagons now. I’m still impressed with my 2019 4mo wagon considering I bought it for around $24k brand new. They really offered a lot of car for the money up until recently it seems.
I drove VWs for almost 40 years. When it was time to replace my latest VW not one model of theirs was on my shortlist. Aside from the hotted up Golf, all they have are trucks. I. Don’t. Want. A. Truck. Especially not one that size for size can’t haul as much as my wagon did.
I did have a chancde to drive a recent Jetta and walked away from that feeling like the car did nothing that Mazda, Honda, or Kia couldn’t do except be cheaper to won. So why pay a premium for the car and for service down the road?
I sure see a lot of VW Atlas’s on the road.
I just bought one and love it. Cheaper than competition with extremely nice fit and finish. Originally wanted Grand Highlander but couldn’t wait a year due to accident.
Which is a shame, because that’s just an economy version of the Touareg that it replaced (which you can still buy outside the US).
Touareg is a beast. Basically a joint platform with the Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7. Tows as much as a full size truck, in the form factor of a medium SUV.
VW has a history of making a crappier, less capable, uglier, and cheaper version of their best cars, and only offering the shitty one in the US.
Selling shit cars at high prices with fabricated economy numbers isn’t a sustainable business model.