There’s been confusion about why Ram put big 3.6 liter V6 as a range extender on the 2025 Ramcahrger. Surely that is terribly inefficient?
No, it’s not.
Ram states following specs: 92kWh battery pack, 145 miles of electric range and 690 miles of total range, 27 gallon gas tank.
Electric range of 145 miles with 92 kWh means electricity consumption of 63 kWh/100 miles. Full tank contains 920 kWh of energy and gives 545 miles of range. That is consumption of 168 kWh/100 miles. The electric energy needed for 545 miles is 343 kWh, so the efficiency of the range extender is 37%. The generator and electronics have some energy loss so the efficiency of the V6 engine is closer to 40%. That’s crazy efficient for a gas engine.
Why is it so high? Why not use smaller engine?
Engine efficiency is highest at relatively slow speed and nearly full load. That big V6 can produce the required power at low RPM but needs to work hard. That’s very efficient. Smaller engine would need to run very fast which decreases efficiency.
In summary the V6 is very efficient at this particular application which suits it very well.
Also it’s a known engine, good from the companies perspective and good from the buyer’s perspective.
I imagine people driving this vehicle would like to arrive back home with an empty gas tank and a emptyish battery. Otherwise the gas would go bad because it could be months before a long trip again. I could see people getting a half a tank of gas so they end on E.
Done right that isn’t a problem for the gas.
I own a Volt… The computer knows when we last put gas in it and counts it’s age. At 322 days or something like that the computer forces the gas engine to be used to use up the aging gas. Once you burn off enough to replace 50% of the tank the counter resets and you can run on battery again.
Furthermore the tank is pressurized/under vacuum so the gas lasts longer anyway.
I’m assuming the engineers have all those same old Volt tricks in mind for the Ramcharger.
CMAX does the same. Tracks age of gas.
My 2021 RAM 1500 Rebel was stolen a few months ago. I was fully prepared to keep that truck for 10 years. I hate the less aggressive styling of the 2025 but I’m very interested in this updated engine.
If looks like they’ll be using the 3.6 liter Pentastar engine for the generator. That engine has an amazingly flat torque curve, and starts making power at very low RPMs. If I remember right, something like 90% of its torque is available at <1400 RPMs in most vehicles it was put in (tuning varies a bit between an old Dodge Journey vs a Challenger.) Tuned for outright efficiency in a narrow RPM range, this engine should do great for this application.
I’m surprised we don’t see diesel being used instead, it wipes the floor with petrol/gasoline when used as a generator
The extra cost and weight of a diesel is wasted as the engine isn’t running most of the time. I don’t need efficiency on something I rarely use, I just need effectiveness.
Atkinson cycle thermal efficiency gets pretty close to small turbodiesel. And is much cheaper. If they were really focused on efficiency they’d mechanically link the ICE to the wheels instead of choosing a pure series system.
People focus on regen braking as the big gain for hybrids but it’s really keeping the load and rpm in the sweet spot to get over 40% thermal efficiency.
Regen is better for marketing, it’s easier to understand and lends itself to gamification. Everyone loves to see 100% energy recovery on their dash but it’s fiction as there are heat losses.
It should be trivially easy to make this an Atkinson cycle engine - just modify the cam.
Agree regen is the easier marketing pitch. It does help in cities, of course. But Camry Hybrid’s 50+ MPG highway rating doesn’t come from regen!
I read something about this 130 kW V6 having a special 190 kW mode. Maybe for uphill towing. That says variable valve timing to me, which unfortunately does increase complexity over a simple set of Atkinson cams.
Plus, long term this a LOT more to maintain and repair!!! Win-Win, right?
Keep those oil change places in business!
Gen2 Volt owner here. Oil change every two years and that is based on Factory recommended calendar as we don’t put enough “gas Miles” on it to hit the mileage interval for the oil change. Air filter hardly gets dirty we drive on gas so little.
Haven’t had to do a brake job either thanks to regen braking. Likely never will have to unless an inspection shows something out of wack.
Our Volt has had far less maintenance needs/costs than the car it replaced when that car was the same age.
545 miles / 27 gallons is 20 mpg. Yeah it’s terrible.
Also the electric only efficiency is also terrible: 1.57 mpkWh.
The pacifica can go about 2 miles per kWh. I’d expect more relative the the Ramcharger.
I read somewhere the 92 kWh pack is not the usable amount, only 70 something kWh is usable. It’s laughably small for the size of vehicle. My truck has a 98kwh pack and that’s usable amount, it seems disingenuous if Ford advertised my truck as having 110-115kwh pack which isn’t a lie but it’s not usable.
It’s an advantage to have a smaller battery, less cost, less weight, less expensive to replace. Best case scenario 15 years later you can replace the battery with something much more capable.
The F150 hybrid gets 24 MPG and has been out for a while.
This system gets 20MPG on gas.
I agree 20MPG on gas isn’t great, but that’s not really the point on a range-extended EV, especially one with such a high EV-only range. The average driver only drives 37 miles per day, and I’m willing to bet that number isn’t much higher for light-duty pickup owners.
I own a Volt and even with only about 60 miles of EV range I only use gas maybe 3-4 times per year. And so the fuel efficiency that I gets when I do use gas is a pretty minor concern.
From talking with truck owners around me, the biggest roadblock to getting them to consider an EV truck is that they want ability to tow/haul something longer distances if needed (and to be fair, the range on EV trucks goes down significantly when towing). But at the same time most will admit that they only used their hitch maybe twice in the past year.
63% of truck owners rarely or never tow anything.
https://www.powernationtv.com/post/most-pickup-truck-owners-use-them
Just because a truck CAN tow doesn’t mean it’ll be bought mainly to tow.
Many people want an EV but live in some place like Watertown, SD and spend the holidays in Omaha, NE. Factor in cold weather, detours and tight schedules and a pure EV doesn’t fit your use case. Getting most of the way to Thanksgiving is no good.
Even if we just look at other hybrid EVs that had a generator, without doing the math, it seems perfectly reasonable.
The little carbon-fiber BMW I3 REX had a 2-cyl generator that was totally insufficient for running the electric driveline once the battery was depleted. I have heard that this was by design because German tax on it would have been higher if it got more ICE range than EV range.
The Chevy Volt was a step up in size and weight from the I3 but still an efficient shape and needed a 4-cyl generator to fully power the electric driveline once the battery was depleted. I think most people don’t realize the Volt had a completely different hybrid configuration than all the other hybrids and was a really innovative car. But it had a stupid small back seat smaller than a Prius’ so that really limited sales, IMO.
So of course the much, much larger, heavier, brick-shaped Ram pickup is going to need more than a 4-cyl to move it with reasonable performance once the battery is depleted.
I have heard that this was by design because German tax on it would have been higher if it got more ICE range than EV range.
Not German tax. California’s BEVx category - i3 is as far as I can tell the ONLY vehicle that ever tried to meet the requirements of the category.
The i3’s bigger problem was not that the REX was underpowered - it would have been fine IF it had been allowed to turn on earlier. By preventing its light-off until the very last moment, what SHOULD have been a requirement to meet average power consumption needs was replaced with a requirement to meet peak power consumption needs - and the engine was woefully unsuited to the latter. This was done to avoid “European company car syndrome” - a PHEV that someone never plugs in. (Turns out those statistics are completely different in Europe than the US because it’s common over there for companies to provide employees company cars AND a fuel card - so the employee always uses the gas engine because for them that’s “free”).
For comparison, the Volt, a vehicle that did not even carry a tow rating at all, had a “mountain mode” that would light off the engine much earlier (45% BSOC). A modern vehicle that does carry a tow rating could EASILY identify that a towed load was present and adjust turn-on/turn-off thresholds appropriately. (Ways to identify: Is the trailer lighting/brake circuit drawing current? Are you taking twice as much energy to accelerate to 60 MPH as you normally would? Are you taking far more energy to maintain steady-state speed than you normally would? If any of those are yes, light off the REX earlier.)
If you look at the controls in the Ramcharger there is a button to keep the battery fully charged with the engine.
Even more reason that the REX is oversized for the application.
That said I can understand the “don’t have a problem if the user forgets to hit the button” concern - but there are better solutions than doubling the REX size - such as automatically detecting towing so that the button is rarely needed unless you’re driving unloaded and expecting to start a tow with low battery.
Are they still using the pentastar v6 that:
Has constant oil issues
Rocker and lifter problems as low as 40,000 miles
Water pump issues
Run rough and noisy even when new
Why would anyone want the above PLUS the complexity of an EV system from a company who actively said they dislike EVs?
You are buying a Stellantis product. It’s GOING to be a hunk of crap.
However that engine running as a steady state generator should last longer. Those engines never get stressed. They just gently hum along at low RPM. And most of your miles will be electric only. As long as the maintenance is kept up there should be few issues.
Crap engines and trannys. Here you have an engine that runs gently and rarely and no transmission. Greatest Chrysler product ever.
The real answer is that they already make millions of the V6, including in plyg in hybrid versions,so it’s cheap and easy to put into anything
R and D is expensive.
Personally, I think they should have only targeted a 50 mile all electric range and made it more of a true PHEV. I think when the volt was released, a study showed that 40 miles range covered like 90% of all trips. I think going with the big pack is a waste of resources and drives up cost too much for little additional benefit.
Then they should have released an all EV model with a battery closer to 200 kWh and no engine for those who are into that.
Gen2 Volt owner here. 53 miles is the spec for the gen2 range. That does indeed cover us most of the time.
In reality - I would love for it to be about 80 miles to account for impact of winter on range.
I can’t really complain though. Bought the car brand new after they announced end of production. Nicely loaded for roughly $30k and essentially $24k after the tax rebate. That was cheaper than the previous sedan we had bought 13 years prior for $20k after factoring for inflation.
21,000 miles on battery and roughly 15,000 miles on gas thus far. Has been the perfect daily driver for my wife.
The Volt was very heavily criticized for only having 40 miles range. Expectations of range have gone up quite a bit since then.
Not sure why people care about this truck when it will almost definitely cost six figures (100% once it hits stealership lots), has all of the maintenance and burdening concerns of both ICE and EVs/PHEVs/HEVs (oil changes/ICE frequent maintenance, battery maintenance concerns), and of course is likely not going to be made at very high volume (which ties into stealerships marking them up).
I love the idea of this truck don’t get me wrong, and I’d almost definitely consider it, but over time those things make it a vehicle that will be short-lived in about 5 years once EV trucks start progressing and evolving. This is also a Stellantis vehicle, I do NOT trust those vehicles at all and wrapping up that much tech into this thing can result in a costly ownership nightmare if it is not engineered tightly.
EVs still have 12V battery.
Technically those last 5 years (supposed to at least) and are in the same category as things like brakes and tires and whatnot
As a Volt owner, I love the RamCharger… But for what a nicely optioned one would cost I’d likely be better off paying for a 1 ton F-350 diesel for the assured extra towing capacity.
Still… I think towing with Ramcharger could be better than my current F-150 as the Ramcharger would be heavier, and have a lot more HP/Torque. Additionally I could level 1 charge it on site at the campgrounds so would have less gas use while out exploring the areas we camp in, but also likely be at full charge for the drive home. Would definitely increase my towing MPGs a bit.