I feel like the idea that women are otherworldly creatures instead of people and seeing someone being nice to their partner as “the man having tamed a female and convinced her to treat him well” has a lot to do with his problem.
I hate how much that is preserved socially, there’s no good reason why that hasn’t gone away at least a decade or two ago.
It’s learned helplessness. Once they get rejected 15 times in a row for being a weirdo or something similar, they start to think in that instead of either reflecting back on the experience and trying to be better, or looking elsewhere.
Simply going from zero self improvement to nonzero may not be enough. That’s why we call a situation like this a hole. A person in a hole needs to climb to get to ground level.
well yeah i get how you can start doubting yourself after that. sad as fuck.
Totally agree. I’ve been in a relationship for 5 years now, and it most definitely didnt involve me trying to tame her 🤣
It was just luck to meet. We both liked each other. That’s literally it.
The important feat is making yourself into a person that the other person would like to have in their life and makes their life better.
Yeah, seeing them as a person seems like a crucial part in that equation.
You started with “pspspspsps” and some snacks and you know it
Don’t forget the flowers
Where was there talk of taming women?
There wasn’t, that’s what it sounded like to me, you’re welcome to disagree, angrily if you feel like it.
Right around when he referred to her as a “free masseuse”.
There wasn’t. FierroGamer got way too many upvotes for his stupid comment.
Cool! I didn’t know I was getting good numbers. That’s how I read the thing but you’re welcome to disagree, I certainly don’t read “convinced a woman to touch him gently” as someone recognizing the woman is a person who might’ve chosen to do so without convincing the same way she chose to rub his shoulders too.
OOP is a 30yo forever alone virgin posting to 4chan, I think this kind of perception of women is par for the course. At least the outcome wasn’t totally terrible and he walked away without offending anyone, probably the best we could hope for.
It’s possible they have harmful views but my coworker gets along with another person enough to be their life-partner might be what they mean but is not how people talk. Well, maybe they should (or otherwise say they don’t gel well with others/intimacy) if it’s so likely that people are going to jump to conclusions.
I’d assume that most misogynists would frame it by insulting the coworker/wife (at least in their post), not admitting how sad they are or that they cried and left.
Yes. Being isolated is a result and a cause of strange views of other people.
It’s a positive feedback loop that one needs to accept massive discomfort — on the part of the re-integrating person and on the part of the normal people they’re re-integrating with — in order to escape.
Avoidance of disturbing others is a key part of men self isolating.
It definitely reeks of incel energy, which is unsurprising considering the source.
Yeah well that’s kinda what happens
Of course people want make this guy into ultra Hitler and blame the situation entirely on him.
If it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t saying he’s the most horrible person in the world but rather that his issue is most likely linked to the way he sees women.
I also could’ve sworn I made a point about it being a societal issue rather than just that individual’s
you were plenty clear. I have no idea what that person read.
Funny thing, how the words “blame” and “power” refer to exactly the same thing.
Anon imagining a giant, insurmountable gap between his life and his coworker’s life is a huge part of the problem.
He has a job, goes to the gym and apparently he is able to experience emotions. Also, a seemingly well-adjusted person inviting him home immediately suggests he is able to make a good and trustworthy impression.
He can jump the gap easily, he just doesn’t know it, so he’s timidly staring to the other side and imagining what it must be like to live there.
If you think you’re flawed, unattractive and unworthy of love, you can easily remain untouched way into your adult life, just by sabotaging yourself.
He is looking over the fence seeing the grass being greener.
But doesn’t notice the gate
Well sometimes you need help to see that gate. If he has not seen the gate yet then how will he magically see it now until it is pointed out
Of course, the gate may just look like a fence to them.
Let’s be honest here, given that we have a partial, biased peek into anon’s life, there could be a myriad of reasons that make that apparently small gap a far more serious problem. He may have a notoriously ugly face or body, he may suffer from heavy anxiety at the tought is becoming intimate with another person as a result of trauma, he may have atypical nonverbal communication, he may not want to form a connection with someone he doesn’t really have much in common with, he might be a mysoginist. These possibilities would limit his options a lot, and looking for someone when you’re supposedly doing everything right but still having so much trouble is painful.
If not saying Anon shouldn’t look for tools to actually find a partner if he wants to put in that effort, but that we shouldn’t underestimate his difficulties.
Also, maybe he has body dismorphia which destroys his self confidence and therefore limits his contact to women even more.
Anon’s co-worker would probably be willing to try and help him, especially given that he was helping them. The social nature of humans is our low-key superpower.
Evolutionary biologist here.
The social nature of humans is our high key superpower. It’s an increasingly common position that our individual intelligence is at least in significant part a side effect of an evolutionary arms race in an increasingly complex social environment, and that this was added to by the multilevel selection dynamic of increasingly cooperative groups. See EO Wilson for more details, as he’s one of the more prominent biologists who studied the phenomenon.
Our social nature is powerful, sure. Sweating, though…
Sweating is what allows you to survive in most climates as well, what is wrong with it on that front? It even helps with pheromones delivery, double whammy! )
Would be great and all if I weren’t sweating every time the temperature goes above 10°c
You can train for that
Or just move to a colder climate
A place that stays below 10c year round isn’t a cooler climate it damn near a polar climate.
Pro tip: use Fahrenheit, you can go way higher.
Well, its okay not to win in the natural selection) Luckily for people we do not have to adapt to an environment, we have means to either change it or move to another, more fitting one. You are evolved for higher latitudes, did you consider moving to an icy region?
My horny ass was waiting til coworker and his wife asked to get fucked by op
A+ for the literary exercise. Authror played us like a fiddle. I still love these greentexts, even if they’re fake. All good fun.
Maybe they would have if op hadn’t ran out! At least that’s what I’m going to imagine…zip
Same homie same
Definitely looks like that’s where it could have gone.
Yeah I definitely thought it was either going into full threesome fantasy or that OP would get a boner or do some other high IQ move on the wife.
You might wanna try dating apps, its often easier than most would like to meet swingers and couples looking for their third, their unicorn. But negotiating a threesome is more difficult than most of them are ready for.
Oh you sweet bean. I really want to comment on this and not be dismissive. But I am quite old and very sexualy experimental. I’m polyam with two partners and I’ve been a bull for couples before. But thank you for trying to direct people that maybe less knowledgeable then myself. Keep being kind!
Hehe. Keep living that awesome sex life!
I wanted to give you an upvote, but you are at 69 right now an I couldn’t bring myself to do it.
A 22 year old that’s married with a house?
Lol
Just said his house. At no point did I interpret this to mean he owned it. If your a renter you still refer to it a my house when inviting people over.
That gave me pause, too. But I have a family member who bought a house at around 19 - a fixer upper in a semi rural area in Georgia (the US state) with a down-payment from his family. His dad helped him repair it and make it liveable. So that’s lending some verisimilitude to the story.
Upvote for specifying US state, not the country!
It’s possible in a very rural area with mommy and daddy’s help, but it’s definitely not ‘finding happiness’.
Owning a house means being house poor, can’t buy what you want because all your money is spent maintaining your property. That’s stressful.
Getting married in your early 20s is also a recipe for disaster, you change too much in that time period and have no idea what you really want out of life. FOMO starts to hit as 30 approaches and both partners blame one another for trapping them in an isolated home with no money and the next 50 years looking exactly like the last 10 did.
It’s not always mommy and daddy though. My fiance busted her ass and saved up and was able to make the down payment herself when we got our house. Definitely not easy, but not entirely impossible. And yes, I know we’re lucky, I am grateful for what I have.
Yeah when I was 16 I had a 19 year old girlfriend who owned her own place. It wasn’t a small place either, 5 bedrooms, 2 bath, large living room and an entertainment room.
She bought it for 20,000 in a tiny rural neighborhood in the middle of nowhere. It was always packed with young people partying. One day she got married, had kids, and raised them there.
She sold the house about 5 years ago for 60k and used that as a nice down payment on a nice house in the middle of town.
She got the place for a damn good price. It was in an old mining town and had been cared for since the 60s by a housekeeper for a rich family who left when the mines went under. I’m not joking, when we went to look at the place it was a time capsule. It had magazines in baskets in the kitchen from the 60s. The decor hadn’t been changed. The woman who lived there kept to her one room and maintained the rest of the house. It had the color tv the owners bought in the late 60s, a bookshelf with old encyclopedias, the original washing machine and classic stove. The guy who owned it was the owner of the local cable company and there was a building full of old cable hardware. He had a washing room built outside for the lady who stayed there where she kept her personal belongings. It was a large room with an attic. Hell, someone could have lived in there honestly.
It was amazing. Kind of broke my heart to see it changed.
What a dumbass, had that masseuse chick right there and he married a building
Renting exists.
He could be in the military. I know a few people married with houses in the US at about that age, and the story fits.
He’s fucked his life up 3 times then
Yeah these creative writing exercises are getting very creative
Sounds like the south
My fiance put the down payment on our house and had us moving in when she was 23, so it’s definitely possible even on meager income. We don’t have the nicest house in the world, but it’s good enough and we got lucky on the timing, it would cost us a lot more now, only 5 years later.
To anyone who is in the position of anon, the task is simple, just spend time with them. Treat them like people, which is what they are, instead of something to be won or to be won over.
Mutual respect, common principles, and a spark is all that’s really needed. Understand that while you may be interested, they might not be. Would you really want to be with someone who doesn’t genuinely want to be with you? Probably not, so just keep going. You’ll get that spark eventually and things will kick off. Until then, be a good person and treat everyone with respect.
The whole confidence game is a bit misleading too. Confidence comes from being proud of yourself, more than anything. If you’re not proud of yourself, perhaps that’s an area to improve. Do things that you’ll be proud of, and become someone who is confident in the process. Understand that not everyone will be impressed by your achievements, and that’s ok. It’s not a competition.
Any person who will shame others for their interests probably aren’t worth knowing.
If you have serious struggles with confidence and relationships, there’s no shame in seeking help with the council of a friend or from a professional.
Be well.
deleted by creator
Got it, hit the gym in VR chat
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To anyone who is in the position of anon, the task is simple, just spend time with them. Treat them like people, which is what they are, instead of something to be won or to be won over.
For OP, who is lacking massively in experience with both intergender emotional connections as well as intergender physical intimacy, your methods are unlikely to work anymore. Most age-appropriate women for him are going to be looking for an experienced man, and will be revolted by his lack of experience.
And yes, even my wife (46) confirmed this in a recent conversation last year, and she’s pretty darn progressive. Beyond a certain age - usually around 22, but it differs with each woman - most women start getting turned off by any inexperience a man might have with emotional and physical intimacy. By this age, women begin to want and prefer an experienced man who has proven his worth with prior relationships.
Why? Because an older man without experience practically screams “I am an exceptionally poor choice for you” precisely because no other woman has decided to take a chance on him – this is an actual preselection sexual strategy found in almost all women.
Sure, he might still find someone. But at his age, the likelihood that he’ll be chosen for any reason other than being an ATM and/or a surrogate father to children who aren’t his, is statistically about as close to 0% as he can get. He has about as much chance of finding a truly good and loving woman (who is still single, childless, and not below the half-plus-seven rule) as he does winning the Powerball several times in a row.
You start off strong and then go fully off the incel cliff at the end there
Provide a specific criticism. Right now you’re attacking tone.
You start off strong and then go fully off the incel cliff at the end there
Ah, yes. Because resorting to an ad hominem is just such a good option when a reasoned counter argument is impossible to provide.
Interesting how you reach for a tool used almost exclusively to shame men into compliance with the narrative. Especially since it is impossible for me to be an incel in the first place - I am married, FFS. I just refuse to be blind to reality and facts.
I agree that it limits the number of woman that might be options.
But you are making it sound neat impossible. And that that is just not true.
Somebody will be out there who sees something in op. It might take a bit to find her, but honestly, as long as he learned to treat her as a human beeing and not as an asset to aquire he’ll be good.
I met my wife with 36 while she was 38. There are reasons she was single. There where reasons I was a single.
We have been the happiest couple I can imagine and I can’t fathom how much luck I had.
Don’t give up. Learn to be a descent humans. The rest will fall into place eventually.
You’re making one very serious assumption that ruins your entire argument.
You assume that all women 22+ are going to have the same opinion as your wife.
You’re assuming that I’m speaking exclusively about lonely men, not even stopping to consider that the advice I gave would have any use to women.
Factually, there are plenty of lonely women, ladies who may never have been kissed, etc. The difficulties that would lead someone to be in the position of being, for lack of a better term, a 40 year old virgin, are not exclusive to men.
There are entire communities dedicated to people who are “forever alone” (so far), with other people who are the same.
And that’s not even considering all of the other types of intimate relationships people can have.
It’s so arrogant to think that your small, isolated and anecdotal experience is the only way things are, or could be. Then you use that anecdote to essentially tell people who are in that position that they’re essentially without hope. How cruel. Even if your words had merit, throwing in the face of people trying to give people genuine advice is simply one of the worst things you could have done.
Clearly, your mother never told you that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”.
Enjoy your ratio.
Can someone get me in contact with green text anon guy? I’m a licensed massage therapist, I’m a woman, my hobbies are working out and he likes working out too and it was so poignant how he responded to that massage and he appreciates women and massage and health and his reaction to being the sad lonely third wheel was so heartbreaking and he deserves love.
He’s behind 7 proxies, and at least one of them is emotional. In scientific probable reality he doesn’t even exist.
Also not sure if it’s a joke or some other angle, but there’s lots of dudes out there (and on here) like that but I wouldn’t expect it to ever work out well (if any offer was even accepted). It’d be long/difficult process even for doctors/therapists to fix people like this up with today’s options. Maybe volunteer somewhere instead (if you don’t already).
He’s definitely a real person. So real that millions can identify with how he was feeling. The fact that he verbalized it so well makes him even more precious. His feelings are real and valid and he deserves love. And millions of others just like him.
TBC that was a reference*, though I warped it a little as I was trying to imply that he isn’t emotionally present (to an extreme degree), not that it’s a fake story or anything like that.
And yes of course everybody deserves love but that’s easier said than done when people are broken. And whatever you’re thinking w/your original comment I could see maybe helping, maybe too uncomfortable for them, or maybe they get emotionally attached in a way that ends up making you uncomfortable. Lots to go wrong and I don’t thing the massage is really the point. They could’ve easily broken down from… any other kind gesture really.
*= full quote: “this man has been re-living the same second for a hundred years. This particular issue is all in his head. But it’s in our heads too. We all share his condition in a way. In scientific probable reality he doesn’t even exist. ARE YOU CONFUSED?” (note from David Firth, a bit weird/morbid animations, but fittingly it’s from the episode called The Unfixable Thought Machine. Though I reference this often, it’s not particularly relevant to the actual thinking of my comment otherwise.)
Just sayin’ anyone who’s suffering and not irreparably broken yet, and can still articulate the feelings and reach out, we need to get together and heal each other.
Just sayin’ anyone who’s suffering and not irreparably broken yet, and can still articulate the feelings and reach out, we need to get together and heal each other.
How?
Great question. Metta meditation is a good way to start cultivating one’s own ability to love.
Eew that song has always given me the creeps.
On another note, R.I.P. Marvin Gaye, such a tragic end 😞
but that’s easier said that done
Love is not something you feel, it is something you do.
— Madeline L’Engle
why are people here talking about fixing? What ecactly are the things he’s told that need fixing? That he’s nervous to ask women to go on a date? How does this mean he needs fixing? I’m sorry can we stop pretending we need to be perfect before having a relationship?
The amount of pressure this puts into people is crazy, if you have obvious problems you should ofc fix them but a ton of times having someone by your side and them having you can help tons if you both are sincere and communicating.
Just stop it please, this dude showed nothing wrong, if anything how he realized he misses being in love with someone, my god.
Because somebody who has been alone for their entire life (at 30) probably isn’t just nervous. Particularly with the crying and leaving with touch, that’s probably a deeper issue even just from the solitude alone. And if he misses love it wasn’t requited, mentioned at the beginning with khv (no hug/hand-holding).
But yeah, OOP is probably better off than me and I’m projecting. Not saying anything about perfection, just that a random meetup/fix-up is odd and OOP probably needs a little therapy and/or some other form of help, and I’m guessing based on their own words that they know that (easier said than done).
KHV, koi herpesvirus? Not communicable to humans.
googles again
Oh. Oh damn, that’s sad. [NOTE:] not [he] is sad, though he might be, it is not my intention to bag on the person for the circumstance.
I’m not as broken as OP but it’s still gonna take a professional unbrokenor. Don’t touch me, I’ll cry.
I’m a licensed massage therapist and even I’m picky about who touches me and who massages me. Some people have a good intuitive touch and some people have a toxic creepy selfish touch.
And when I massage other people professionally, I’m still a human, and there’s still a few moments at the beginning where we both have to melt into a healing therapeutic mindset.
Again, I say I have received some pretty shitty massages before, to the point I rarely if ever want to receive another massage again, but I have no idea what it feels like for other people when I massage them other than the feedback they give me, or they leave feedback with my manager at the front desk and/or on anonymous computer form, and the feedback has been all positive and clients request me and return for more.
Oh, I trust you, I’m not saying you shouldn’t do what you love and are great at doing.
I guess as someone that can relate to OP, it’s not appropriate to open up about such deep emotional feelings to someone who isn’t in a position to handle them, i.e. your coworkers wife, or anyone really that you don’t trust more than anything, which for most men is their partner.
Maybe just a platonic massage where a guy can just have a good cry for an hour would help. For me personally though that would be difficult as like I said, trust is huge and I generally want to build that with someone that also wants to continue that. With therapists the trust is legally there so I’m at least more comfortable with that fact with them.
Yes, that’s what I specialize in. Platonic massages. They are so healing.
But let me be clear here, I’m just babbling on a discussion forum and I have no hope or intention of meeting anyone here, I’m just discussing how that green text made me feel.
I guess I don’t really know what different types of massages are, I’ve never had one as it doesn’t appeal to me. Maybe if men like OP knew about massages that are more about just touch with another person, maybe more emotional release than a like physical therapy massage, then they might seek that. I’ve never seen or heard of that type of thing. I think it would certainly appeal to a lot of guys, but that’s also essential targeting the most difficult demographic you could. It’s like the cure is the problem.
Obviously? This is the internet.
Yeah it’s inevitable, massage is emotionally healing as well as physically healing, as long as the person allows themselves to completely relax & surrender.
Honestly I’ve had some clients who stay rigid & talkative the whole time, which makes it impossible for them to relax & feel the physical & emotional benefits but even then it’s okay because that’s where they are right now, and over time with repeated sessions they will learn how to relax if they want to.
I agree. The man behaved inappropriately. The question is whether a man who behaves inappropriately should then he ostracized as a result, or whether people who are doing better should learn to ride out the discomfort from the inappropriate behavior.
It’s all a personal choice. Nobody should ever be forced into helping. But for each person, cultivating the ability to help will lead to a more meaningful life.
I really like helping people, and I guess I have whatever it is that makes people so comfortable opening up to me. I get that I have the ability to help so many people, but honestly, holy shit is it tiring. People just open up and tell me so much, it’s exhausting knowing so much about people. Like at work everyone opens up to me about whatever is stressing them out, other coworkers, family, outside things I have no reason to know. If anything, letting people trauma dump is easy, it’s carrying that information afterwards. They go back to just walking around behaving the same but I know everyones secrets as to why they aren’t.
Some people have a good intuitive touch and some people have a toxic creepy selfish touch.
So true.
There’s also the cold disconnected robotic touch, going through motions regardless of the receiver’s response.I’m not a professional, but for me when I massage someone, there’s usually a lot of empathy involved.
I end up immersing myself in how they feel, how their body reacts, kinda trying to imagine their pains and aches like they were mine.
Idk, I’ve never really thought about it and I’m not sure I have the words to describe that.A robotically responding body can be taught to respond organically. Stimulation rearranges nerves.
Melting with a person who doesn’t melt is a skill. It’s not just a binary working-or-it’s-not situation. It’s like hitting a target with an arrow. More practice leads to more success, and to success in places where only failure was before.
Non-professionals should practice it too. We’re never going to save humanity if we leave it all to the professionals.
Professionals are the only ones with the PPE to keep me from giving them second-hand broken.
It’s okay to cry.
:'(
Don’t choose a guy to fix him, it does good for neither of you.
This.
Unfortunately, this old quote is true far more often than not:
Women marry men hoping they will change. Men marry women hoping they will not. So each is inevitably disappointed.
She might be intending to help him, not be with him.
This was a truly wholesome response, not that garbage that reddit considers a wholesome moment
Hey i like working out too
Loneliness epidemic. Anon is not alone. I mean, he is alone in a way, but he is also not alone in a different way.
Steve feelin’ lonely, but Steve ain’t alone.
There’s a million other Steves in their little Steve homes…Totally.
I’m there right now in a way. Between pandemic, being single, and living off-grid in the woods…
It’d been 2 years since I had any physical contact with anyone. Was visiting a friend a few weeks ago and they hugged me when I left. I had to pull back because I could feel the emotions building. Until that moment I hadn’t realized how lonely I was and how much I missed being close to another person. Didn’t think I had the desire to date again but now I know I have the need.
I was expecting surprise threesome but received surprise depression instead
Anon flew so close to the sun and didn’t even know how hot it was.
I have quite a bit of sympathy for this man. Never being loved or touched makes for a broken mind. As repugnant it is to say I’m relieved he turned his misery into self hatred rather than anger to those around him. Hopefully he will either find someone or ages out of the desire for romantic companionship thus ending his turmoil.
What the fuck are you talking about. Self hate is surely not helpful for anything and definetly not for finding people that like you or turing into a decent person. smh
Self hate can go three ways: deterioration, motivation, or repression.
Deterioration is the worst outcome for the individual. Self hate becomes learned helplessness which can cripple a person’s mental state.
Motivation is usually the most productive. Using that self hatred as a starting point to address personal issues. The original author stated they were going to the gym on the regular, considering what they wrote I would conjecture self hatred might be the motivation there.
Repression varies in harm to an individual. You either accept and move on about negative aspects about yourself or you ignore them outright. It’s the bottling up of negativity, not addressing the underlying issues. This is the way some people handle criticism, which can be disastrous for society when powerful people keep adopting this method.
Now to address your statement about self hatred not being helpful for finding someone or becoming a decent person; not processing negative emotions isn’t healthy and a girlfriend isn’t going to be a magic fix for the author to be happy.
Ahh so the real reason Jeff Bezos is so successful is because he was never hugged as a child
Nice long paragraph. First you tell the reader that self hate has three different outcomes without any backup for your presumptuous claims and then you want them to take the rest at faith value too. Thats asking a little bit too much.
There are many sources for motivation and i would dare claim self hate is not motivating anyone. Overcoming self hate might give you motivation but thats the key aspect. Its like saying being poor or starving are good motivations. No they are not. Getting better is.
Your whole wall of text sounds like something a mediocre motivation guru would tell people on youtube. If you ask me, you are talking out of your ass, maybe because you overcame your own self hate (which i very much hope).
If you would tell me you struggle with self hate i would tell you to get help. Professional if you can manage.
You don’t seem to understand loneliness much.
I’m one of the loneliest people in the world. I’ve been this way for decades. Whether or not I understand loneliness I can’t say, but I’ve got plenty of experience in it.
We can tell. Keep it to yourself. Your misery only demonstrates you’re deeply out of touch. It does not give you special wisdom or understanding of how other people operate or feel, no matter how much you like to imagine it.
You sound like a lonely person indeed.
You’re projecting.
What’s a “khv wizard”?
Kissless handholdless virgin. Basically “never been kissed, never held hands, never had sex.” There’s a running internet joke that if you’re still a virgin by the age of 40, you get rewarded with wizard powers.
30
Kissless handholdless (I’ve seen some say hopeless} virgin
I thought the h stood for hugless.
I’ve seen it used for either. KHHV means both.
Man that’s a rough read
Haha relatable
Sadly I can relate to anon.
That’s painful to read as I’ve been there. Hell I’ve even been there while in a relationship that was in troubled waters before. It’s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes, but I promise it’s there.
