An all-loving god sentencing sinners to eternal damnation is bad writing. Plus it ethically justifies ANY atrocity if the atrocity is done in service of converting ONE sinner. One person going to hell is worse than a million holocausts. A Christian who believes in hell can justify doing anything to “save souls”. Conversion therapy, witch burnings, crusades… If it keeps one person out of hell, it was worth it. That’s not a good mindset.
you cannot commit a mortal sin without full knowledge that what you’re doing is wrong and choosing so anyway
we may not necessary be clear on the hows/whys/details but it follows that anyone in Hell is there because of deliberate choice on their part
again, not believing isn’t a sin
see previous point about the possibility no one is there
Not to say that Catholicism doesn’t have things it can be criticized for (Lord knows) but I know the type of Christians your taking about and it’s just so far and beyond removed from our actual theology)
Is emitting carbon a mortal sin? Helping end all life on earth seems like some major grade heresy to drag, and a sixth commandment violation. If you know climate change is real and caused by humans, is driving a car a mortal sin?
I mean, they’re good questions. I don’t know if knowing the answer is simple, though.
I would say that I’d think any conception of a Just or Good god would take into account one’s level of power in a system, though.
A CEO who has access to the data and the power to do something? I expect you could make the argument yes.
I think the average person who has to use a car because it’s the only way to get to the job which feeds their family is probably not committing a mortal sin.
And I think it’s fair to consider cases where a person may be aware of the data (and able to transfer away from a car by making changes in their life) but not fully register how they contribute to it to be cases where we might argue that they aren’t fully aware that they’re doing wrong or harm.
So you can know all the facts and do the wrong thing, but it’s okay if you haven’t thought about the ethics very hard? That seems like a troublesome system. Doesn’t it incentivise people to avoid reasoning about their own actions?
I mean, (at least at this point in time) Catholicism doesn’t claim to know exactly on that specific issue.
That would be my position, I think; I might think you may be being too black and white about how people process information and how easy that is or isn’t.
But, if that’s too lenient for you, I’m sure you could find other Catholics who take a more concrete or defined stance. There simply isn’t any definive dogma, yet, promulgated by the church on exactly where the line is on how much your struggling with an issue is sufficient enough for God.
Perhaps I’m too lenient but I do think that most people don’t decide to do things because they think it’ll make the world worse; that’s just me, though.
Drag is very disappointed in most people because they don’t think very hard about the consequences of their actions. They do bad stuff like driving cars, voting Republican, eating meat. Drag always wondered where people picked up this nasty habit.
Christianity says that people eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is sin. In other words, knowing right from wrong is bad. Do you think Christianity is responsible for people today being so unwilling to think about the consequences of their actions?
Drag is very disappointed in most people because they don’t think very hard about the consequences of their actions. They do bad stuff like driving cars, voting Republican, eating meat. Drag always wondered where people picked up this nasty habit.
I mean, that’s really fair; and relatable. I certainly do believe there’s a cutoff, somewhere.
Do you think Christianity is responsible for people today being so unwilling to think about the consequences of their actions?
I take the same tact that I had when some people have argued that religion causes more harm to the world: I honestly think people would figure out a way to do it, anyway.
I mean, the Bible (if nothing else) is pretty clear on how we should treat the poor and televangelists still use it to take money from people struggling with cancer; and plenty of people who believe they’re Christian call the police on the homeless (I’m reminded of this statue and how a member of a church called the police because she thought it was a homeless person sleeping on a bench: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/302019921/statue-of-a-homeless-jesus-startles-a-wealthy-community).
The difficulty with beliefs is they often span a lot and people inherently lean towards picking the parts they like. And people have a vested interest in pursuing the interpretation which makes things most easy for them (even if it isn’t right).
So I wouldn’t say it’s Christianity (or any other faith) so much as people do it themselves.
And, while I may not know where the line is, I do actually hear you on how these actions by people worsen the world for others and I don’t think there’s carte blanche freedom on ones responsibility towards these subjects.
This is so true! There was a true Cambrian explosion of holy men and mystics in the first century in the eastern Roman Empire. Christianity was the one that out-competed them all. The best brain worm. The two thousand year meme.
All religions steal from prior religions, it’s all about who makes up the best story. The best religious memes survive and spread.
An all-loving god sentencing sinners to eternal damnation is bad writing. Plus it ethically justifies ANY atrocity if the atrocity is done in service of converting ONE sinner. One person going to hell is worse than a million holocausts. A Christian who believes in hell can justify doing anything to “save souls”. Conversion therapy, witch burnings, crusades… If it keeps one person out of hell, it was worth it. That’s not a good mindset.
It’s about conversion, control, and propagation of religious ideas. It isn’t about making the nicest fairytale.
As a Catholic, it’s slightly grating for most criticisms regarding Christianity to just be reactions to the most obnoxious Protestants.
(for reference,
Not to say that Catholicism doesn’t have things it can be criticized for (Lord knows) but I know the type of Christians your taking about and it’s just so far and beyond removed from our actual theology)
Is emitting carbon a mortal sin? Helping end all life on earth seems like some major grade heresy to drag, and a sixth commandment violation. If you know climate change is real and caused by humans, is driving a car a mortal sin?
I mean, they’re good questions. I don’t know if knowing the answer is simple, though.
I would say that I’d think any conception of a Just or Good god would take into account one’s level of power in a system, though.
A CEO who has access to the data and the power to do something? I expect you could make the argument yes.
I think the average person who has to use a car because it’s the only way to get to the job which feeds their family is probably not committing a mortal sin.
And I think it’s fair to consider cases where a person may be aware of the data (and able to transfer away from a car by making changes in their life) but not fully register how they contribute to it to be cases where we might argue that they aren’t fully aware that they’re doing wrong or harm.
So you can know all the facts and do the wrong thing, but it’s okay if you haven’t thought about the ethics very hard? That seems like a troublesome system. Doesn’t it incentivise people to avoid reasoning about their own actions?
I mean, (at least at this point in time) Catholicism doesn’t claim to know exactly on that specific issue.
That would be my position, I think; I might think you may be being too black and white about how people process information and how easy that is or isn’t.
But, if that’s too lenient for you, I’m sure you could find other Catholics who take a more concrete or defined stance. There simply isn’t any definive dogma, yet, promulgated by the church on exactly where the line is on how much your struggling with an issue is sufficient enough for God.
Perhaps I’m too lenient but I do think that most people don’t decide to do things because they think it’ll make the world worse; that’s just me, though.
Drag is very disappointed in most people because they don’t think very hard about the consequences of their actions. They do bad stuff like driving cars, voting Republican, eating meat. Drag always wondered where people picked up this nasty habit.
Christianity says that people eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is sin. In other words, knowing right from wrong is bad. Do you think Christianity is responsible for people today being so unwilling to think about the consequences of their actions?
I mean, that’s really fair; and relatable. I certainly do believe there’s a cutoff, somewhere.
I take the same tact that I had when some people have argued that religion causes more harm to the world: I honestly think people would figure out a way to do it, anyway.
I mean, the Bible (if nothing else) is pretty clear on how we should treat the poor and televangelists still use it to take money from people struggling with cancer; and plenty of people who believe they’re Christian call the police on the homeless (I’m reminded of this statue and how a member of a church called the police because she thought it was a homeless person sleeping on a bench: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/302019921/statue-of-a-homeless-jesus-startles-a-wealthy-community).
The difficulty with beliefs is they often span a lot and people inherently lean towards picking the parts they like. And people have a vested interest in pursuing the interpretation which makes things most easy for them (even if it isn’t right).
So I wouldn’t say it’s Christianity (or any other faith) so much as people do it themselves.
And, while I may not know where the line is, I do actually hear you on how these actions by people worsen the world for others and I don’t think there’s carte blanche freedom on ones responsibility towards these subjects.
This is so true! There was a true Cambrian explosion of holy men and mystics in the first century in the eastern Roman Empire. Christianity was the one that out-competed them all. The best brain worm. The two thousand year meme.