Gay? A villain?
No way. He’s but a simple tailor…
Just a plain tailor. Plain. Simple. Garak.
Posts like this confuse me.
On the one hand, DS9 isn’t really known by people who don’t watch Star Trek. The chance of someone randomly running their mouth about it is infinitely lower than something like TNG or TOS.
On the other hand I can’t see how anyone who watched DS9 can call Garek noble. One of the best episodes in the series revolves around him orchestrating a plot to trick the Romulans into entering the war by assassinating a Romulan senator. Not only does he show 0 hesitation, but he correctly points out that Sisco went to him precisely because that’s his bread and butter.
I mean, first of all, that’s exactly the kind of thing nobles did. I know the word as an adjective in current usage reflects the image that nobles want people to hold, rather than the reality of assassinations of both reputations and persons for political and personal ends, but I think that the distinction is material to the discussion.
Garak is conflicted about many things. He’s a brilliant and multidimensional character - a torturer with a heart of gold - and it is exactly that Janus-like relation to morality as conceived of by Starfleet that makes him so key in the Dominion War. Like Division 31, his character brought into relief the existential question of the role of intelligence services and dirty deeds in a liberal democracy. The Roddenberryverse Federation was the Galahad (or at least the Lancelot) of the galaxy, and the occasional dark aspects that surfaced invoke the role of organizations like the CIA in a democracy. Garak, as a Cardassian and officer in the Obsidian Order, adheres to a broadly different morality, but ends up aligning with the Federation because of his conscience. His multi-faceted relationship with Bashir is often used to show his “odi et amo” relationship to the Federation.
In any case, I think that I’d have to characterize Garak as “noble.” He was constantly thinking about the big picture and the greater good, even if the deck he was playing had a few more cards than some of the Federation folk were comfortable with. If you define “noble” as being completely exclusive of “evil,” then the character concept of the OP cannot exist. That would be a shame, because it’s an interesting concept to explore.
What an insightful analysis. Thanks for taking the time to type it out, you made me want to watch ds9 again.
I guess that depends if a noble character can be an “ends justify the means” character.
Garak orchestrated an assassination and frame job but it was for the purpose of defeating the Dominion. Since the Dominion was an oppreeive regime, defeating them serves the greater good and thus his actions could be argued to be noble.
Whether Garak is noble or not really is a philosophical question.
The Vulcans might have approved. Something about the needs of the many…
It is logical to organize crime
I think he qualifies as a magnificent bastard, but he’s definitely not noble. He doesn’t quite match what the poster is asking for.
Garak was ready to get himself killed for destroying the Founders and thus preventing the Dominion war. If Worf was 5 minutes late in fact, millions would be alive because of Garak giving his life (and everyone else’s on the Defiant) to save them. That’s pretty noble in my book.
I agree, perhaps what people see as noble in him is that he is incorruptible when it comes to his own moral code. I always think of noble gases when I hear “noble” xD so something that doesn’t mix. And I think that’s right for Garak. Noble as in righteous definitely is not fitting.
He is an incredibly likeable character, but just because that’s a part of his skillset!
We shouldn’t forget that he believes cruelty can be justified, like most Cardassians seem to do. Either a lot of people agree on this take on cruelty, or it’s easy to forget because in the show his cruelty is rarely shown. We just hear about it (mostly).
He’s insidious. Just like the Federation, and root beer.
The worst part is, after a while you start to like it
Lawful evil
I don’t think the books are canon but first off Garak is truly one of my favorite characters and second off Andrew Robinson wrote an amazing book about him that I highly suggest you read if you want to know more about him. He’s complicated but is absolutely not a good guy, at least not in the traditional sense.
The book is very good! It’s called A Stitch in Time and apparently the audiobook is narrated by Andrew Robinson. I read the book, mostly in his voice, but now that I know the audiobook was narrated by him I need to get it haha!
I am half way through the audiobook, and it’s glorious. Highly recommend.
Novels are a lower tier of canon, and appear on the Memory Beta wiki, instead of Memory Alpha. There is also a third tier wiki called Memory Gamma. Memory Alpha is generally considered to be an authoritative source on primary canon.
On the other hand I can’t see how anyone who watched DS9 can call Garek noble.
I can call him noble. He has his moral code, a very strange one, maybe, of a spy, but still, there is a flavor of nobility in him.
Also, I don’t see how hes gay coded. He doesn’t have a sexuaility.
Andrew Robinson, the actor, has said that he played Garak as a bisexual character, and that Garak’s original motivation for befriending Bashir was simple sexual attraction.
Edit: source https://youtu.be/KQXQm1081xo?t=2289
It really didn’t come across the screen at alk.
If you don’t mind me asking, are you straight? I ask because every queer person I know, myself included, absolutely picked up on Garak’s queer coding, but most of the straight people I know who watched it during it’s original run (or shortly after) didn’t.
Im straight.
Go watch the scene where Garak is leaving and Bashir gives him the chocolates, and tell me you don’t see it in their faces alone
Do you happen to remember the episode?
Improbable Cause s3e20. Beginning of Act Four.
In the Pale Moonlight is one thing, but in Broken Link Garak is caught by Worf attempting wholesale genocide.
In his defense, he wasn’t the first one to try to genocide the Founders. Or even the second.
What he did wasn’t noble, but it was for the good of the entire Alpha Quadrant. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he was almost always on the “right” side of things throughout DS9.
Yeah totally. The focal point of “In the Pale Moonlight” was when he told Sisco that he came to Garek precisely because Garek knew how to do sketchy shit like this, and that deep down Sisco knew that something like this was gonna happen with Garek involved.
The thing the world “noble” in popular culture doesn’t use Machiavelli as a reference.
Glorious even.
I bring dishonor to my house.
Edit: Turns out you can edit titles. I have not brought dishonor. Mwahahaha.
Thanks Teft <3
I thought Garak was canonically bi?
It was never said on screen.
But the actor has said that he always played Garak as if he was bi if not gay.
Yeah, for the show being made when it was, he does a great job focusing the majority of Garaks flirtation with men.
There’s lots of ways to interpret pain simple Garak. I think many of us caught that he is meant to be gay, or at least bi.
I think there’s arguably also some solid subtext about Garak probably being persecuted by Cardasian (cough - military) culture for being gay, as well.
And perhaps even that being closeted on Cardasia might be a big part of his origin as a…plain simple tailor.
I mean him being a tailor is a pretty on the nose way of hinting that he spends a lot of time in closets.
I don’t think it’s canon, but I’m pretty sure he is in some novels
Licensed novels are beta canon.
What does that mean?
Star Trek maintains two layers of canon. Anything on screen (TV or movie) is “alpha canon.” Books, comics, games, etc. are “beta canon” and generally considered below the alpha class of information, but canon until contradicted by alpha canon or statements by creators. The most commonly cited and held in highest regard pieces of beta canon are the various tech manuals which have ven been used frequently by writers, but occasionally contradicted on screen.
See: Memory Alpha (shows, movies), vs. Memory Beta (that, plus everything else)
Given his interest in Ziyal, he’s at least bi. We’re better than bi erasure in here, right?
Good point!
In fairness, it is (by design, I think) really hard to tell when Garak is trying to bed someone or just has a soft spot for them.
But yeah, there’s plenty of evidence Garak could be bi.
I don’t think it’s erasure to guess when it’s such a mysterious character though, right?
We can ultimately only speculate because Garak guards his secrets so closely to protect his career as a… plain simple tailor.
He and Bashir should have hooked up at least once.
Allegedly the original plan
Damn conservatives denied us something wonderful.
Gashir
Just overlook the torture, like with Ellen DeGeneres and her pal George W. Bush
Currently playing Baldur’s Gate 3 and Astarion came to my mind immediately
That’s perfect, lol. Astarion and Garak are both shady and seemingly self-serving but may have a heart of gold underneath it all.
Not noble enough to qualify, I think.
deleted by creator
He’s so good
Is being gay typically unhelpful or something?
As a gay dude, I can answer this.
For decades the only time that a gay person was allowed on screen was if they were a villain. That was a straight up rule in Hollywood. It never really stopped and gay characters either were still villainous in some fashion (which honestly I’m fine with) or just became background set dressing. Just put there for representations sake.
There are a lot of gay characters, and gay movies, that are only made by straight people for straight people.
The post is more upset that we don’t have the variety of representation that straight folks have.
‘Diamonds Are Forever.’ In the opening sequence the two hit men kill about a dozen people, including an old lady. When the movie made it to antenna TV for it’s premiere the only thing they cut was a quick shot of the two men holding hands.
What villains were gay? I can’t think of any off the top of my head. (But admittedly thinkin ain’t my strongest suit)
Norman Bates - Psycho, Buffalo Bill - Silence of the Lambs, Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct. There are more if you go by queer coded and not explicitly stated as LGBT.
Zed from Pulp Fiction.
Zed’s dead, baby.
True true. Thanks
Also see TVtropes. There’s several related pages, e.g. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SissyVillain
The only good representation of gays or lesbians I have seen recently was the kids show The Dragon Prince. The show has everything. Lesbian mothers kissing on screen, openly gay men, a single dad, multicultural patchwork families, a non-binary person going by “them”, … These are side characters, but they are fleshed out and don’t just are these traits. They are likeable characters with an actual role in the story.
Interestingly, kids seem to have zero problem with accepting this. There were no questions ‘why does this character have two mothers’ or ‘why does the black king have one white son’.
My nieces were fans of the show and one of them even had a Dragon Prince birthday party. I wonder how many parents just never watched the show, or they are all really open minded.
Interesting that it’s the kids’ shows that have been killing it on representation for years now. She-Ra, The Owl House, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts, and more. And The Legend of Korra walked so they could run.
