I’m not sure calling democratic socialism a centrist political system is reasonable. The intended changes to society are still radical and their gradual implementation doesn’t change that. The intended outcome is still some flavor of communist utopia, and that’s still reasonably leftist I’d say.
Modern democratic socialism as an idea is well over 200 years old at this point. It’s moved beyond the leftist fringe and it’s ideas have become relatively institutionalized in a lot of developed nations (at least partially).
Hence, the window has shifted and what was once seen as radical policies of Democratic socialism have become relatively mainstream.
I see your point, and it’s true that a lot of earlier propositions of socialism are already implemented and seen as desirable by most people, but I think that’s something to be said about left wing in general. We’re no longer fighting to abolish 20 hours work day, instead it’s 32 hours work week now. As the window has moved, so did the policy. I’ve never heard about there being a stopping point in regards to how far left socialist democracy system is supposed to push before it’s “principles” are satisfied, but my understanding was that it’s at least until capitalism is abolished (and socialism emerges) or capital class is weak enough to be defeated via revolution of some sort. And so, since it’s intended purpose is to push much further left instead of mantaining the current system and it’s status quo, and some changes required to implement it’s propositions are radical, I feel like it can’t be reasonably called centrist system. Unless your definition of political center differs from mine, but it would require it not to account for both how far left the system intends to shift the society eventually, and also how radical the changes are in comparison to the current center. That, or what we understand as socialist democracy differs, wikipedia page for it mostly fits my definition, and I don’t know where to look for more ‘common’ view on it.
Status quo shifts. That’s the very nature of the Overton window. The modern political zeitgeist has historically shifted to the left. The longer you go in one direction the more the previously held radical ideologies normalize and cohere towards institutionalization, as I said.
There is no limit on the axis of political ideology. One trends towards order and the other liberation. But people aren’t one dimensional.
the intended changes are radical but good for everyone, and involve no sacrifice or tolerance for mess in getting there, slowly and conservatively enough that nobody’s too uncomfortable at any point except the people who were already DEEPLY uncomfortable and fucked by the current shape of things, not rocking the boat too much, etc.
that’s, like, the definition of moderate. it’s the psychology and strategy right wingers claim to have when they’re pretending to not just be evil monsters who get off on oppression, applied to ‘make the world better’. that’s almost the definition of centrist.
It’s true it’s moderate and push for gradual changes to ease everyone in, but it being appealing to more people doesn’t make it centrist, I don’t think. It’s purpose isn’t to balance in the center between the left and the right, but rather to use softer kind of force to move society left.
As in the example you used, what we consider right and (nowdays even far right) manages power without much fuss from the society, and is appealing to some despite it’s facist undertones. Would you consider Republicans to be centrist? Because if you wouldn’t, I’d argue that any democratic socialist party wouldn’t be either.
I think the intent matters more than public opinion, you could sway the public with charismatic enough figurehead without changing anything about policy. I see the ‘center’ as more of the tendency not to change anything either way or balance between the ‘extremes’, and democratic socialism intends to be polite about beheading the capital class.
I said “good for everyone” not “popular”. exterminating the brutes is usually popular. it’s not good for anyone, long term.
the insane fascists who reject every policy that 60% or more of americans favor, like legal weed, single payer healthcare, doing SOMETHING about climate change, and making abortion legal in at least the case of a child rape or a pregnancy that would not result in live birth endangering a the pregnant person’s life, who haven’t won the popular vote once in my lifetime, are popular? you’re so thoroughly wrong here it took me a minute to figure out where to even start taking this apart.
you think intent matters more than public opinion, but you conflate popularity with doing good? I don’t understand how your conclusions follow your arguments, and your arguments seem to contradict each other. I’m genuinely having trouble understanding you, what you’re saying, and how you came to the arguments and conclusions you did.
i feel a bit dizzy right now, so it could be me. can you try to explain another way?
The popularity I’ve talked about referenced your point about it being moderate and easy on everyone nerves. I’ve oryginally started my previous comment by saying, that full blown socialism right here and right now would be good for everyone and it would be considered pretty leftist, but deleted that after deciding this part was pretty much obvious. Something being good doesn’t make it centrist. That’s why I stayed on point of public sentiment, which you seemingly invoked by defining center as moderate in the eyes of voters.
Say whatever you want about their hienous ideas, there wouldn’t be an issue in USA right now or anxiety about Trump winning if they weren’t reasonably popular. And I’m not conflating that popularity with doing good, but using their example to reject your argument about popularity making a political system ‘centrist’.
I don’t understand where did you get popularity = ‘doing good’ from me, but before we get into argument about that, I don’t see how either of those would make a system centrist. ‘Good’ is relative, and further left would be ‘better’ by this logic, right? So how does that make a democratic socialism ‘centrist’ if ‘doing good’ is the measure you’re using here? It being moderate is for the sake of popularity, gradual shift to the left so no one has any major complaints, and I think I’ve spoken enough about how I don’t see popularity as reasonable measuring standard here.
Democratic socialism wants to overthrow the capitalism, bring socialism, give everyone free healthcare, have worker co-ops as default mode of working, UBI, yada, yada, all of those propositions are radical (as in fundamental) and definitely leftist. Instead of violent revolution this system proposes a reformative approach, and that’s basicially the main difference from wide range of socialist systems that would attempt to implement the same things. So how is that centrist? Moderate, I get. Popular, sure. But center would refer to either a midpoint between the furthest right and left ideologies, or a minimal degree of change from the current political system, depending on how you want to define that word. I can’t see Democratic Socialism fitting either of those definitions, so it has to be a leftist system. I don’t see how it being moderate or popular would even influence that.
you’re saying my arguments are incoherent because I was trying to go after your arguments, which did not seem coherent. I was saying the insane fascist policies from both major american parties, as an example, are both harmful AND unpopular. you’ll notice that the harris campaign dropped all her popular ‘radical’ policies now that she’s running against trump rather than whoever she was against in her congress run, because she doesn’t have to look good now.
worker co-ops are leftist? how so? what is ‘leftist’ in your definition? does that just mean “not ridiculously fucking evil” now? I feel like it’s used like that sometimes.
again, I wasn’t working on my definitions; I was trying to understand yours, could you please explain them?
I never said anything like that. Are you sure you’re not confusing this thread with some other discussion you’re having?
I’ve yet to meet a person that wouldn’t describe socialism as “far left”, and one of the main principles of socialism is ownership of the means of production by the working class, which is exactly what worker co-ops are. As such, those would be “leftist”.
I’ve already described what centrist system is in my view and argued against your arguments about it being rooted in being moderate as opposed to shift in society the system intends to implement. I’ll reiterate my argument against classification of democratic socialism as a centrist political system - it intends to implement fundamental changes (which already makes it non-centrist if you wish to use subjective definition of centrism, where it protects the status quo) that will lead to fall of capitalism and rise of socialism (which is a far left political system, and that would make democratic socialism non-centrist by ‘objective’ definition, in which centrism is a mid point between furthest left and right).
You claimed that being moderate is the definition of centrism and then used right wingers as example of using it as political strategy. I see that as a clear contradiction. By your own admission right wing use the veil of moderate politics to smuggle through their evil policies. So are they the center if they mask their intent, or are they right wing? If they are right wing, despite using moderate politics to disguise their plans and garner popularity for their policies, then democratic socialism would be left wing for exactly the same reason.
That’s my reiterated argument against moderate politics = center. You’ve never described center as anything other than moderate politics, not shaking the boat etc. - which I wouldn’t say inherently applies to democratic socialism either, but that’s a whole different discussion. I’ve disagreed with this definition of centrism, as it’s unrelated to political spectrum - you can be moderate anarcho communist just as well as nazi that doesn’t want to rock the boat, so they remain popular with the public.
Regarding popularity, because your argument about Republicans not being popular still seems weird to me, it’s not related to ‘doing good’. Nazis were popular, won the democratic elections, you know? Some people just like facism, but others are drawn in by charisma and stuff like that. You accused me of conflating popularity with good, and I still have no idea where you got that from.
I’ll remind you we’re discussing whenever democratic socialism is a centrist political system or not, not how far left it is. And re-reading your first comment, I’m not even sure we define this term in the same way, so I’ll just point out the definition on wikipedia is mostly compatible with mine. You seem to think that perhaps the Democratic Party in US is democratic socialist party, judging from your remarks about Harris policies? Because if so, that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I’ll be honest, I’m very confused with your replies. I’m trying to address what I ‘think’ you’re talking about, but I feel like you came to this conversation with a baggage of context (or misunderstanding) that I’m not privy to.
okay but define ‘left’. im not asking why worker co ops are left. I’m asking what ‘left’ is.
what is ‘moderate’ here? and why is it called that?
I said the word moderate was being abused. and I think that was a reply elsewhere, but I could be wrong.
political spectrum. what political spectrum? what are the axes here? what are the variables that define this supposed spectrum?
I got it from the things you said.
I… seem to think the democratic party in the US is a democratic socialist party? you’re clearly thinking of someone else. I don’t know what the hell is going on here, but I think you might be confusing people in your head.
what is ‘centrism’ and does it have any relationship to ‘leftism’?
You can’t just keep asking questions and avoiding answering mine, and I’m not exactly willing to describe “all of everything” to catch you up to speed. This conversation is getting rather tiring due to that, to be honest.
There are multiple ways to define the “left” and the spectrum itself, but the way I see it described most often is collective approach to the economics on the left, individual on the right, and measure of authoritarianism of the system in the vertical axis, usually with the top being authoritarian and bottom being libertarian. Due to that being the most common way to describe it I know of, it’s one I’m using. You’ve got ML folks in the top left corner, communo anarchists on the libertarian left corner, fascists in the top right corner and libertarian right in the bottom right corner. I’m waving to you from somewhere in the bottom left quadrant. The “Left” in this case typically includes support for social ownership, redistribution of wealth, public control over resources, and greater economic equality. Ideologies on this side often prioritize the welfare of the community or society as a whole over individual wealth accumulation. Policies may include progressive taxation, social safety nets, public healthcare, strong labor rights etc.
As for what moderate means, I’m using your definition from your first comment. Directly, since you’ve defined centrism by measurement of moderation and reasoned that democratic socialism is centrist instead of leftist due to it fitting that description. I’m not arguing against your definition of moderate politics, but it being a characterizing attribute of centrist political systems.
the intended changes are radical but good for everyone, and involve no sacrifice or tolerance for mess in getting there, slowly and conservatively enough that nobody’s too uncomfortable at any point except the people who were already DEEPLY uncomfortable and fucked by the current shape of things, not rocking the boat too much, etc.
that’s, like, the definition of moderate. it’s the psychology and strategy right wingers claim to have when they’re pretending to not just be evil monsters who get off on oppression, applied to ‘make the world better’. that’s almost the definition of centrist.
As for dems being democratic socialist, you’ve referenced Kamala Harris and her policy propositions, and I’m not sure why, so I explored the possibility of it being the point of our misunderstanding.
And finally, about what “centrism” is… Come on, man, I’ve described it like 4 times now. It’s time you pick up some weight here.
Where did you get the right wing there? I’m seriously confused, since nothing that I said about democratic socialism was negative. Radical changes are needed and utopian societies are good. I just find calling democratic socialism a centrist political system inaccurate due to its intended radical change, as opposed to social democracy or, you know, centrism as it is understood.
Leaning of political system would be measured in degree of proposed changes. The center shifts, but even without accounting for that, democratic socialism is still not a centrist political system by any measure. Democratic socialism proposes radical changes, as it attempts to dismantle capitalist estabilishment, eradicate class structure and all that. Those changes are touching fundamental aspects of the current system, which make them, by definition, radical. As opposed to centrist position of mantaining the status quo.
I thought you had some sort of insight about democratic socialism being actually a centrist position, and wanted to hear it out, but it seems you’re either unwilling or unable to engage with that topic. Suit yourself.
I’m not sure calling democratic socialism a centrist political system is reasonable. The intended changes to society are still radical and their gradual implementation doesn’t change that. The intended outcome is still some flavor of communist utopia, and that’s still reasonably leftist I’d say.
Why though? What makes it a centrist system in your view? Elaborate.
My own political vantage?
Modern democratic socialism as an idea is well over 200 years old at this point. It’s moved beyond the leftist fringe and it’s ideas have become relatively institutionalized in a lot of developed nations (at least partially).
Hence, the window has shifted and what was once seen as radical policies of Democratic socialism have become relatively mainstream.
I see your point, and it’s true that a lot of earlier propositions of socialism are already implemented and seen as desirable by most people, but I think that’s something to be said about left wing in general. We’re no longer fighting to abolish 20 hours work day, instead it’s 32 hours work week now. As the window has moved, so did the policy. I’ve never heard about there being a stopping point in regards to how far left socialist democracy system is supposed to push before it’s “principles” are satisfied, but my understanding was that it’s at least until capitalism is abolished (and socialism emerges) or capital class is weak enough to be defeated via revolution of some sort. And so, since it’s intended purpose is to push much further left instead of mantaining the current system and it’s status quo, and some changes required to implement it’s propositions are radical, I feel like it can’t be reasonably called centrist system. Unless your definition of political center differs from mine, but it would require it not to account for both how far left the system intends to shift the society eventually, and also how radical the changes are in comparison to the current center. That, or what we understand as socialist democracy differs, wikipedia page for it mostly fits my definition, and I don’t know where to look for more ‘common’ view on it.
Status quo shifts. That’s the very nature of the Overton window. The modern political zeitgeist has historically shifted to the left. The longer you go in one direction the more the previously held radical ideologies normalize and cohere towards institutionalization, as I said.
There is no limit on the axis of political ideology. One trends towards order and the other liberation. But people aren’t one dimensional.
the intended changes are radical but good for everyone, and involve no sacrifice or tolerance for mess in getting there, slowly and conservatively enough that nobody’s too uncomfortable at any point except the people who were already DEEPLY uncomfortable and fucked by the current shape of things, not rocking the boat too much, etc.
that’s, like, the definition of moderate. it’s the psychology and strategy right wingers claim to have when they’re pretending to not just be evil monsters who get off on oppression, applied to ‘make the world better’. that’s almost the definition of centrist.
actually, I might even call it “the farthest right political idea that isn’t just evil”
It’s true it’s moderate and push for gradual changes to ease everyone in, but it being appealing to more people doesn’t make it centrist, I don’t think. It’s purpose isn’t to balance in the center between the left and the right, but rather to use softer kind of force to move society left.
As in the example you used, what we consider right and (nowdays even far right) manages power without much fuss from the society, and is appealing to some despite it’s facist undertones. Would you consider Republicans to be centrist? Because if you wouldn’t, I’d argue that any democratic socialist party wouldn’t be either.
I think the intent matters more than public opinion, you could sway the public with charismatic enough figurehead without changing anything about policy. I see the ‘center’ as more of the tendency not to change anything either way or balance between the ‘extremes’, and democratic socialism intends to be polite about beheading the capital class.
I said “good for everyone” not “popular”. exterminating the brutes is usually popular. it’s not good for anyone, long term.
the insane fascists who reject every policy that 60% or more of americans favor, like legal weed, single payer healthcare, doing SOMETHING about climate change, and making abortion legal in at least the case of a child rape or a pregnancy that would not result in live birth endangering a the pregnant person’s life, who haven’t won the popular vote once in my lifetime, are popular? you’re so thoroughly wrong here it took me a minute to figure out where to even start taking this apart.
you think intent matters more than public opinion, but you conflate popularity with doing good? I don’t understand how your conclusions follow your arguments, and your arguments seem to contradict each other. I’m genuinely having trouble understanding you, what you’re saying, and how you came to the arguments and conclusions you did.
i feel a bit dizzy right now, so it could be me. can you try to explain another way?
The popularity I’ve talked about referenced your point about it being moderate and easy on everyone nerves. I’ve oryginally started my previous comment by saying, that full blown socialism right here and right now would be good for everyone and it would be considered pretty leftist, but deleted that after deciding this part was pretty much obvious. Something being good doesn’t make it centrist. That’s why I stayed on point of public sentiment, which you seemingly invoked by defining center as moderate in the eyes of voters.
Say whatever you want about their hienous ideas, there wouldn’t be an issue in USA right now or anxiety about Trump winning if they weren’t reasonably popular. And I’m not conflating that popularity with doing good, but using their example to reject your argument about popularity making a political system ‘centrist’.
I don’t understand where did you get popularity = ‘doing good’ from me, but before we get into argument about that, I don’t see how either of those would make a system centrist. ‘Good’ is relative, and further left would be ‘better’ by this logic, right? So how does that make a democratic socialism ‘centrist’ if ‘doing good’ is the measure you’re using here? It being moderate is for the sake of popularity, gradual shift to the left so no one has any major complaints, and I think I’ve spoken enough about how I don’t see popularity as reasonable measuring standard here.
Democratic socialism wants to overthrow the capitalism, bring socialism, give everyone free healthcare, have worker co-ops as default mode of working, UBI, yada, yada, all of those propositions are radical (as in fundamental) and definitely leftist. Instead of violent revolution this system proposes a reformative approach, and that’s basicially the main difference from wide range of socialist systems that would attempt to implement the same things. So how is that centrist? Moderate, I get. Popular, sure. But center would refer to either a midpoint between the furthest right and left ideologies, or a minimal degree of change from the current political system, depending on how you want to define that word. I can’t see Democratic Socialism fitting either of those definitions, so it has to be a leftist system. I don’t see how it being moderate or popular would even influence that.
you’re saying my arguments are incoherent because I was trying to go after your arguments, which did not seem coherent. I was saying the insane fascist policies from both major american parties, as an example, are both harmful AND unpopular. you’ll notice that the harris campaign dropped all her popular ‘radical’ policies now that she’s running against trump rather than whoever she was against in her congress run, because she doesn’t have to look good now.
worker co-ops are leftist? how so? what is ‘leftist’ in your definition? does that just mean “not ridiculously fucking evil” now? I feel like it’s used like that sometimes.
again, I wasn’t working on my definitions; I was trying to understand yours, could you please explain them?
I think I already explained that.
I never said anything like that. Are you sure you’re not confusing this thread with some other discussion you’re having?
I’ve yet to meet a person that wouldn’t describe socialism as “far left”, and one of the main principles of socialism is ownership of the means of production by the working class, which is exactly what worker co-ops are. As such, those would be “leftist”.
I’ve already described what centrist system is in my view and argued against your arguments about it being rooted in being moderate as opposed to shift in society the system intends to implement. I’ll reiterate my argument against classification of democratic socialism as a centrist political system - it intends to implement fundamental changes (which already makes it non-centrist if you wish to use subjective definition of centrism, where it protects the status quo) that will lead to fall of capitalism and rise of socialism (which is a far left political system, and that would make democratic socialism non-centrist by ‘objective’ definition, in which centrism is a mid point between furthest left and right).
You claimed that being moderate is the definition of centrism and then used right wingers as example of using it as political strategy. I see that as a clear contradiction. By your own admission right wing use the veil of moderate politics to smuggle through their evil policies. So are they the center if they mask their intent, or are they right wing? If they are right wing, despite using moderate politics to disguise their plans and garner popularity for their policies, then democratic socialism would be left wing for exactly the same reason.
That’s my reiterated argument against moderate politics = center. You’ve never described center as anything other than moderate politics, not shaking the boat etc. - which I wouldn’t say inherently applies to democratic socialism either, but that’s a whole different discussion. I’ve disagreed with this definition of centrism, as it’s unrelated to political spectrum - you can be moderate anarcho communist just as well as nazi that doesn’t want to rock the boat, so they remain popular with the public.
Regarding popularity, because your argument about Republicans not being popular still seems weird to me, it’s not related to ‘doing good’. Nazis were popular, won the democratic elections, you know? Some people just like facism, but others are drawn in by charisma and stuff like that. You accused me of conflating popularity with good, and I still have no idea where you got that from.
I’ll remind you we’re discussing whenever democratic socialism is a centrist political system or not, not how far left it is. And re-reading your first comment, I’m not even sure we define this term in the same way, so I’ll just point out the definition on wikipedia is mostly compatible with mine. You seem to think that perhaps the Democratic Party in US is democratic socialist party, judging from your remarks about Harris policies? Because if so, that couldn’t be further from the truth.
I’ll be honest, I’m very confused with your replies. I’m trying to address what I ‘think’ you’re talking about, but I feel like you came to this conversation with a baggage of context (or misunderstanding) that I’m not privy to.
okay but define ‘left’. im not asking why worker co ops are left. I’m asking what ‘left’ is.
what is ‘moderate’ here? and why is it called that?
I said the word moderate was being abused. and I think that was a reply elsewhere, but I could be wrong.
political spectrum. what political spectrum? what are the axes here? what are the variables that define this supposed spectrum?
I got it from the things you said.
I… seem to think the democratic party in the US is a democratic socialist party? you’re clearly thinking of someone else. I don’t know what the hell is going on here, but I think you might be confusing people in your head.
what is ‘centrism’ and does it have any relationship to ‘leftism’?
You can’t just keep asking questions and avoiding answering mine, and I’m not exactly willing to describe “all of everything” to catch you up to speed. This conversation is getting rather tiring due to that, to be honest.
There are multiple ways to define the “left” and the spectrum itself, but the way I see it described most often is collective approach to the economics on the left, individual on the right, and measure of authoritarianism of the system in the vertical axis, usually with the top being authoritarian and bottom being libertarian. Due to that being the most common way to describe it I know of, it’s one I’m using. You’ve got ML folks in the top left corner, communo anarchists on the libertarian left corner, fascists in the top right corner and libertarian right in the bottom right corner. I’m waving to you from somewhere in the bottom left quadrant. The “Left” in this case typically includes support for social ownership, redistribution of wealth, public control over resources, and greater economic equality. Ideologies on this side often prioritize the welfare of the community or society as a whole over individual wealth accumulation. Policies may include progressive taxation, social safety nets, public healthcare, strong labor rights etc.
As for what moderate means, I’m using your definition from your first comment. Directly, since you’ve defined centrism by measurement of moderation and reasoned that democratic socialism is centrist instead of leftist due to it fitting that description. I’m not arguing against your definition of moderate politics, but it being a characterizing attribute of centrist political systems.
As for dems being democratic socialist, you’ve referenced Kamala Harris and her policy propositions, and I’m not sure why, so I explored the possibility of it being the point of our misunderstanding.
And finally, about what “centrism” is… Come on, man, I’ve described it like 4 times now. It’s time you pick up some weight here.
Okay buddy far right winger.
Where did you get the right wing there? I’m seriously confused, since nothing that I said about democratic socialism was negative. Radical changes are needed and utopian societies are good. I just find calling democratic socialism a centrist political system inaccurate due to its intended radical change, as opposed to social democracy or, you know, centrism as it is understood.
Democratic socialism is fundamentally anti-capitalist, definitely not centrist!
What, you mean there are in fact objective political positions? And some of those are less radical, or more centrist, than others?
Crazy.
Leaning of political system would be measured in degree of proposed changes. The center shifts, but even without accounting for that, democratic socialism is still not a centrist political system by any measure. Democratic socialism proposes radical changes, as it attempts to dismantle capitalist estabilishment, eradicate class structure and all that. Those changes are touching fundamental aspects of the current system, which make them, by definition, radical. As opposed to centrist position of mantaining the status quo.
I thought you had some sort of insight about democratic socialism being actually a centrist position, and wanted to hear it out, but it seems you’re either unwilling or unable to engage with that topic. Suit yourself.