To clarify : “strength of character”
I don’t even understand the question, really.
Strong in character. Not powerlifter. I added a note to clarify.
I honestly thought my meaning was obvious.
I still don’t get it. Are you asking if Sigourney Weaver in Alien is manly? If so, no
Sorry, genuinely trying to understand here. So are you saying “in movies, women who have strength of character are also shown as being ‘manly’ (big muscles, punches people, etc). Is that how it really is?”
If that’s what you’re asking, I don’t think it’s true. Some movies have women of very strong character, who are physically weak, pacifist, etc. And some movies have women that have strong characters and are physically strong, cabable of violence, etc. And some movies have women who are douchey, flawed characters who can be physically strong.
I’m not sure I see any correlation between strength of character and physical strength, or propensity to violence, for either men or women. It’s more of a genre thing - in action movies men and women are more likely to be physically tough, and in political dramas they’re more likely to be physically weak. And there will be a mix of people with “strong character” and people with flawed or weak characters.
This was very well said! But reading through this thread it looks like OP is saying they look manly, not behave manly (I genuinely don’t know what put that in their head)
I don’t know what you mean, but I do find it silly when a 100lb Harley Quinn is kicking the crap out of 200lb men with guns and riot gear. At least if you get a muscled up woman, it’s more believable
Right, Xena is a much better ideal of a physically strong woman, plus has integrity, character, compassion that Harley Quinn can’t even dream about.
Quinn is a villain, what sense would it make to give her integrity or compassion?
All sorts of criminal characters in entertainment are depicted with strong honor, moral codes, and compassion, but twisted.
- since I just saw a commercial for Minions: Rise of Gru, let’s take Gru. His redemption arc centers around his compassion coming to the front
- or take Captain Cold from the Flash, at least in the modern interpretation
Gru is a children’s movie character… You may as well reference Jumba Jookiba, who has the coolest evil character arc… Evil alien scientist, has the opportunity to restore his freedom, instead gambles everything on little earth girl. Then decides to stay with little earth girl and become family to her. But does he stop evil experimentation?.. of course not! He is Jumba Jookiba! The most mad evil scientist in the universe. He will make toaster that can only toast Hawaiian toast Mwahah! He will make house that can clean itself to show matriarch of the household that she is unworthy! Jumba will even make a worse version of the thing that got him exiled to the primitive earth planet to begin with! There are no limits to Jumba’s depravity, his evil cannot be stopped… except when it comes to helping little earth girl. Or his annoying friend/lover Pleakly.
Strength of character for men and women is the same. It is a basic trait of all human beings. Same with strength of purpose. However, how it gets expressed is different depending on the social and cultural situation they are in at the time.
That can relate to gender because some situations are gendered (for example, women are more likely to be in those situations).
In some movies, it is shown as muscles, aggressive etc. Eg Alien. In other movies it is shown in other ways.
Some examples:
The Color Purple
Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri
Once Were Warriors
Fire by Deepa Mehta
Rabbit Proof Fence
Daughters of the Dust
Whale Rider
I’m not sure about that characterisation of Ripley in Alien. She doesn’t survive by fist-fighting the xenomorph, she’s not Arnie in Predator. She’s just determined and resourceful.
I agree with you, but I was thinking in terms of aggression and physicality, particularly in Alien 2 and 4. Similarly someone like Clarice Starling is smart and determined but physical prowess and aggresive assertiveness are a core part of her success.
I think Final Girls are probably what OP has in mind when they say determination in movies = physical strength.
This is a weird question… Aggressiveness is not a side effect of being buff.
I try to remember that not everyone on Lemmy is a westerner or an adult. OP might be from a culture thats still very patriarchal society and their only exposure to muscular women is Hollywood action movies. Angel Dust from Deadpool, Vasquez from Aliens, Rhonda Rousey in Expendables 3…
I was going for “strength of character” actually, speaking of limited. Thanks for clearing it up.
That’s a weird comment. I never said it was.
In movies a strong woman is manly. (big muscles, aggressive, punches people, etc.) Is that really the way it is?
I’m confused, maybe you could try rewording your question?
Ahh, I see the issue now. Elsewhere in the thread it was pointed out.
I meant “strong character”. Big willpower. Driven. Uncompromising. That kind of thing.
Not powerlifter.
Big willpower. Driven. Uncompromising. That kind of thing.
I think that is the answer. :)
I’m trying to think of examples from famous recent movies with women who have that description…
From Disney:
- Moana from Moana
- Joy from Inside Out
- Anna and Elsa from Frozen and the sequel
- Mirabel from Encanto
Have you seen any of those movies? If not, what movies have you seen?
I think we’re moving away from the emotionally strong woman being buff/masculine theme but originally I assume this theme was misogynistic in origin “this woman is so strong she can make it on her own - she doesn’t even need a man… and since we assume a man being present is necessary for survival it’s not that she doesn’t need a man - it’s that she’s her own man! There now we have a strong female character without eroding our own preconceived gender hierarchy. Technically a woman can survive on her own - as long as she’s a man!”
Honestly, you’ll get this read off a lot of early female villains and in trashy movies they’ll queer code her because obviously the female villain (who is functionally a man writing-wise) needs a wife of her own.
Removed by mod
See elsewhere in the thread for clarification.
I don’t think aggression and punching people are manly traits but ok. And I quite like muscular women, it’s damn hot.
Check out the film Gravity. I would call Sandra Bullock’s character strong, but she’s not “manly” at all.
Will do. Thanks.
What would you call feminine strengths?
Regular strengths, but in a feminine person
I don’t think there are inherently masculine or feminine strengths
I don’t think strengths have inherent gender.
Maybe the most muscular people are men, but that doesn’t make muscular women manly.
Strengths that women typically have more of than men might include compassion, encouragement, empathy, aesthetics, optimism, flexibility, networking, organization
Strengths that women typically have more of than men might include compassion, encouragement, empathy, aesthetics, optimism, flexibility, networking, organization
As a guy I took a knee-jerk moment of subconscious offense, but then I realized that while I’m naturally good at a couple of those things, the rest I’ve been striving for a long time to get better at and I’m still very mediocre. Networking may be the only one I wouldn’t agree women are inherently better at, I think that one is pretty 50/50, but you nailed the rest.
My wife and my ex-gf may have skewed my perception on women being good at networking; they’re both great at gaining contacts. This flows into being good at organizing events.
I‘d go for that sneaky archer type. Works better with women imho
So… perception and finesse?
Yes. Did you notice men’s perception? If it’s not moving we can’t see it.
Serious answer: No, its a casting choice.
What you will see in the real world is that muscular women who arent on PEDs will be confident and likely not introverts because unless your taking testosterone, steroids or other hormone altering treatments it takes a LOT of work for a woman to look muscular and unless they are training at home are generally working out in a very male dominant environment where not taking shit off others is the norm. Shy and demure girls dont tend to gravitate to weight lifting.
Consider the movie “Legally Blonde”.
Is that in the vicinity?
Thanks for the serious answer.
Now that I have your serious attention.
What characterizes feminine strength?
I’m assuming that it’s different from masculine strength.
I’m assuming that it’s different
…why?
Because reality has a gender bias.
But in seriousness, because it is different. Think of a motherly figure. Think about what they do, how they do it, what makes them motherly. Compassionate, deeply caring, nurturing, protecting their children at the risk of their own life, always, no matter what. Now, of course there are some men that fit that description, but by and large we think of a female figure. You will see this in most primates. If there was no evolutionary driver to create differences, then there wouldn’t be male and female. Of course there are some exceptions to the rule.
There’s a reason she’s called mother nature. She’s the creator, the nurturer, the beauty and the soul.
Don’t forget about Father Time.
I realize that some likely may not agree with me about this, and I’m always happy to hear a different point of view.
Of course there are gender differences. Even the “most woke” of people will acknowledge this as for, for example, gender identity to work there needs to be something to identify with (or to not identify with I suppose).
But we aren’t speaking about differences in general, we’re talking about one specific trait - ‘strength of character’ - which is not one that is feminine or masculine. A man can show strength of character by standing for their beliefs in a fight or by raising their child against societal odds or by dealing with a traumatic situation in a way that ensures better outcomes than otherwise. But so can a woman? A woman does not become manly despite showing strength of character. One’s gender and presentation and aesthetic doesn’t influence their strength of character. I mean, we’ve all seen Legally Blonde right?
You are conflating strength of character with masculinity? Why?
The answer to your question is no. Women are people, men are people. I think to some extent maybe physical fitness in anyone (anyone able -bodied) correlates with persistence and impulse control, but physical and verbal aggression correlates with a lack of impulse control and lack of empathy. So negative association with strength of character, in anyone male or female or other.
This is a very vague and open-ended question. Keep thinking on it and ask a more specific question to get better answers.
Masculine is the word you’re looking for. It’s all the same, really, just less precise. Out of biological necessity, women and men evolved different ways of handling situations. There will never be a stereotype or trait that applies to every individual of a large group, but if I ask you which is more likely to get into a bar fight, it’s clear the scale tips in one direction or the other.
But regarding the movie question, no. It’s cheap to make a woman physically beefy to give the idea that she’s strong. There are many examples where the woman hero character is not beefy strongwoman. Movies where sword skill or martial arts are employed. There are characters of women who are strong because of their intelligence, always being one step ahead. Women characters who use their cunning wit and charm to con people. Women characters who use their compassion and stoic nature to unite opposing groups to fight a larger enemy.
You see big = strong more often because it’s an easy trope. You wouldn’t expect to see a movie with some lanky spaghetti armed guy kicking ass all day. At most he’d usually be the hacker sidekick for comedic effect.
The discussion around gender stereotypes, no matter how accurate, will always be a landmine, so be warned.
Yes yes.
On a tangential note, I just had a post removed from nostupidquestions. My post about the degradation of knowledge.
Apparently lemmy mods have recently been given the power of shadow-removal (the power to temove while keeping you in the dark about the fact), which is nice.
When everybody you talk to is dumb as a rock. When the people in charge have the integrity of jello. What then? Is it worthwhile sifting cesspools for specks of intelligent conversation then?
It’s not a now thing. The masses have always been collectively dumb. There are some individuals who are intelligent, and they tend to form groups or colleges so they can be around similarly minded individuals.
Lemmy is not a good place for nuanced or intelligent discussion. Neither is reddit. For that, I suggest seeking out a philosophy forum, but then you’ll likely feel like you’re the common idiot… speaking from experience.
You are being trolled, this person made a humongous ruckus and pissed everybody off, and insulted everybody, and is acting like he has no idea what’s going on.
If anybody was a candidate to be permanently nuked from the internet, it’s people like the guy you’re responding to.
I figured, but checking post history gave doubts. I’m seeing this kind of stuff everywhere on reddit and Lemmy… dumb questions almost so stupid and ‘triggering’ it’s like they’re designed to make people upset and nothing else.
It’s more sinister than that, not only did this person go out of their way to be a complete jerk, they spent the whole evening editing their posts and replies, just to provoke conflict.
more sinister than that
That’s what I’m thinking too. It’s part of the common trend I’m seeing here and on reddit. Posting for no reason other than to get people into a pissed off state of mind, and it’s not funny trolling by any means.
And Ripley. Tall. Squarejawed. Ripped. Kicks ass constantly. Can drive a big robot loader thingy, to the impressment of the alpha dudes.
Can you think of any examples of movie portrayal of strong women that did not involve turning into a man?
Surely it exists.
Yeeeah, adding my voice to the “WTF you on about” choir, but since this is a fun exercise anyway: -10 Cloverfield Lane -The African Queen -The Apartment -As Good As It Gets -Bumblebee -Coraline -Dune -Fargo -Interstellar
Yeah, ok, look, I’m just looking at my DVD shelf and getting more confused about WTH you’re talking about every couple of entries. This is a very weird hot take.
a woman can be physically strong without “turning into a man”.
strength of character? how about “nomadland” or “meek’s cutoff”?
I have not seen either of those.
But you see what I mean, right? A strong female character invariably starts looking like a man. Which is, of course, a cheap shortcut on the part of the writer.
What are feminine expressions of strength?
She doesn’t look manly at all. What are you talking about?
It’s like they took arnold schwartzenegger’s jaw and transplanted it onto a supermodel/kickboxer.
musculature is not solely masculine, but if that’s the association for you, it makes sense that you feel a woman with muscles “starts looking like a man”. a similar circular reasoning would be arrived at if you simply considered strength itself to be a masculine trait.
What is considered masculine or feminine is largely a cultural thing. It was once manly to wear skirts (kilts) and dresses (robes) and knit and sew, some places it still is.
A strong person (character trait) is someone who is willing to stand their ground for what they believe is right despite overwhelming pressure, be willing to admit it when they are wrong and flexible enough to adapt when the situation changes.
Sometimes that means you must fight and kill, but talking and listening (often seen as feminine or weak) usually gives better results.
Edit: At some point in my life I will learn to spell things correctly!!!
Talking and listening. “Sensitivity”. “Receptivity”. Those could be called feminine strengths.
Eh, only because society emphasizes them when raising women, just as aggressiveness is emphasized for men. In both cases it is trained for the most part.
There is always natural inclination, but that is often overridden by how you are raised and the experiences you have throughout your life.
Ah, nature vs nurture. I’m with nature here.
Are we allowed to downvote stupid questions in this community, or is it like the unpopularopinion one?
Your bar on what constitutes stupid might be … stupid.
As it should be
