You mean all of America. Because it’s not as simple as that. We have agreements and contracts and alliances we can’t just get rid of at the drop of a hat without consequences.
We can all stand with Palestine - and yes, I do - but do you also want that happening to the US itself? You really wanna fuck with that hornet’s nest?
A vote against Biden is a vote for Fuckface 45. And he’s worse.
You want that? You want Fuckface 45 again? Say it.
The US can do anything it wants at the drop of a hat. That’s an appeal to authority. Israel is almost completely dependent on US trade and support, they’re literally our proxy in the Middle East. They have fought in explicit proxy wars for us already against other nations. There is plenty of leverage, which is why this movement has stayed urging Biden to end the genocide.
If you stand with Palestine, you should vote uncommitted in the Democratic primary to let the Dems know how many people actually want the killing to end. Because until it does, more and more will be killed. They literally die and are dead. A protest vote with no systemic consequences that boosts the call to end the genocide of the Palestinians is worth it, as many people have calculated.
Who is this “they?”
Anyone who is voting “uncommitted” has enough brain cells to know both candidates are bad for the world, which means they have enough brain cells to know Biden is an obvious choice in a Biden v Trump matchup.
Do you understand that in the primary there is no contest between Trump and Biden? Biden’s going to get the Democratic nomination anyway, so voting uncommitted in the primary has no negative consequences in the actual election that happens in November?
The “Biden is complicit and we aren’t voting for him” mentally. Primary or not, this “movement” can gain a lot more momentum going into November than is desired.
This is a dumb take bred from perceived superiority.
actions breed habits
Lmao “I got to the polls in November and my muscle memory took over and I voted uncommitted in the general election, since I did it once 8 months ago I couldn’t resist”. This is like Dunning-Kreuger for life in general.
Or is it a “just don’t do anything” enlightened centrist take?
Ivan Cantu got over 150k signatures for a stay of execution, and he’s still dead. I’m not a centrist, far from it. I’m a progressive.
But I also understand game theory, psychology, and sociology (all on an admittedly amateur-ish level), as well as how First Past the Post voting works in the US. I’m 100% for a cease fire in Gaza, humanitarian aid, the Israel government to be tried for war crimes, etc. But how YOU are doing it has shown time and again that it doesn’t produce results. Oh, so I guess I know a little history too.
So, for instance, you remember 2020 when George Floyd was murdered in cold blood in the streets and then the world’s largest protest broke out? What happened?
What was accomplished via those protests? Did Police Brutality stop? What about the more pertinent Police Brutality of POC? Did Qualified Immunity cease? How many bad apples are still in the bunch? Police unions get busted?
We got a couple of "I’m sorry"s, and a fucking street naming.
You see, while collective action CAN do things (not much), you need to understand that this vote ain’t gonna do fucking squat. You got a 100k+ votes for uncommitted? Yay. Out of 330+ million people in the US. Less than 1%
The general election has been called. And either Biden or Fuckface 45 is gonna win. By recruiting to third party, you’re swaying more people to:
NOT vote for Biden at all (which is a vote for Fuckface 45)
or
not vote AT ALL in the general election in November (which is a vote for Fuckface 45, because the Rs always vote)
I’m not voting for Fuckface 45 in the General Election. Are you?
You wanna stop the genocide today? Take to the streets with a gun in hand. Take to Israel with a gun in hand. Take to a senator’s house with a gun in hand. Don’t self immolate, you’ll just kill one of your comrades in arms.
While I don’t think everyday life should ever have a gun in hand, when you want IMMEDIATE political / wartime change, non-violence solves nothing. (this goes for protests against police brutality, bring a gun - take the mask mandate protests, they were armed, they got what they wanted)
But if you want gradual policy change: vote local, campaign local, work with a local candidate, etc.
Otherwise, you’re just trying to find your friends, and you’re making enemies of possible allies.
Just because trump is an infinitely low bar doesn’t mean Biden isn’t actively supporting genocide.
I’m sick of seeing “But Trump is worse!!!1!” whenever there is a discussion of how fucking terrible Biden can be, especially on his candid genocide support. And the cries from the Democratic party to fall in line behind a president that is failing to support the will of the people in that party is a bit shitty, even though it is inevitable in such a hierarchical power structure.
Like, the problem isn’t “who would support genocide less” it is “why the fuck is the president supporting genocide” and the other question we should be asking is “what is causing us to be in the position that we are debating on who is the lesser evil pro genocide candidate”
Also, I’d like to point out that biden is a hardcore zionist. He will never not be a hardcore zionist. He will never be convinced to stop supporting israel, and we will lucky to even convince him to stop supporting israel until the genocide stops. Or to just call for a ceasefire now.
I’ll hardcore pass on voting for a treasonous bastard. I’m already amazed that we didn’t nuke the fucking planet when trump was in office. I’m not giving him a second chance.
Same. I’m not going to vote for an christofascist cunt who wants to take my rights as a queer person, or the rights of the people I care about.
I’m simply sick of the “BuT TrUmp!!!1” that is always shouted whenever people criticize biden. Every president is a war criminal. Biden deserves his criticism, even though trump is also culpable.
Saying “don’t vote Biden” is very important, actually, and it’s hardly bullshit.
First and foremost, when you are in the mindset that voting is all you can do, saying “Don’t vote for Biden” opens up a great conversation about voting, democracy, racism, and pretty much any issue that is tied to the US government. These conversations are important, and must happen. There is a radical praxis to not voting, whether you’d like it or not. If voting for one of two parties is the only acceptable form of political action, than not voting, voting third party, or something else (such as setting up prefigurative structures) is a good, radical action.
Before you point this out, I do have issue with how many leftists, communists, and anarchists just skip this conversation online, or say something like “Oh, these conversations have happened before, just read this book” or some nonsense. I get that having this conversation a million times is exhausting, but it’s important. You don’t have to do it every time, but if you are able to jump in and take over, you should!
If this conversation is good, it should point out that the supposed “democracy” we have is not only fragile, and being taken over by fascists, but that it was really only a democracy for a small group, not the idyllic idea of the majority getting their say and representation. It should also point out that this “democracy” has been a tool used against minorities as a cudgel, bringing pain and suffering for centuries. It should point out that there are many positions that the majority of the public want, like social/single payer healthcare, yet we have a top aide to the democratic speaker of the house, telling lobbyists to not worry about it!.
Second, Biden is not entitled to any voting, and he needs to be reminded of that with the threat of non-voting, and anti-voting advocacy. The idea that someone is entitled to your vote on the basis that they are not someone (IE: the lesser evil) else is antithetical to the core concept of democracy: bringing power and representation to the people (often through majority voting). Imagine that you have two candidates in a FPTP voting system, one person that is 100% hitler, and another who is 80% hitler. It is obvious that the lesser evil is the one that is 80% hitler, but if the country consists of primarily people who want a 0% hitler candidate, how is the 80% hitler, the lesser evil candidate, a representative of the people? How does that 80% hitler candidate represent the majority of the people? Isn’t that antithetical to the very concept of democracy that such a candidate can exist?
I get that it is a tactical position to vote for biden, considering that trump is so awful. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize someone for voting this way because it is genuinely a logical and reasonable conclusion, but I do think that the thought process that got them there needs a bit of evaluation.
Third, threatening to not vote for biden (and especially staying true to that threat) is good, actually. I’ve already mentioned that biden is not entitled to a vote, but it’s also important to mention that biden is a human being who has the capability of acting to fix this. “Remember to vote for the lesser evil!” is, unfortunately, placing the blame for biden’s actions on the individuals affected by it, rather than the person who did the actions in the first place. Thinking solely from this mindset does not hold biden accountable to his actions, and often leads to blame being placed on people for not voting against their interests.
Finally, you mention “writing to your congresspersons”. I think this is a great idea, but it should not be the only mechanisms of political action aside from voting. I can safely tell you that this is often ineffective. One of my best friends was an aide to a representative in congress for a few years before and during Trump’s presidency. He has been at the receiving end of a calling campaign from some bigots in my state advocating for an anti-trans bathroom bill, and he told me at some point, he stopped paying attention to it, and he was getting pissed off because it was taking up his time that could otherwise be spent working with residents of the state with other problems, such as social security, VA benefits, etc.
Since my dinner break is coming to a close, all I can really do is be that annoying leftist who shoves a book in your face and recommend a short(ish) book that I loved reading about democracy and voting, and the myths it promotes. Crimethinc.'s “From Democracy to Freedom” is freely available as a PDF online through the publisher, Crimethinc.
This will sound terrible of me, but while this was a truly wonderful and thought provoking post I am the worst person to reply to it as I fatigue quickly from replying with a respectfully long post.
That being said, I’ll give the book a read! I also agree with the idea of voting 3rd party. I personally don’t have such a party I agree with but if you do, I want you to vote the way you feel.
I think that’s the point behind voting uncommitted in the primary. It’s to put some heat on the candidate that actually has the potential to change their mind and do something. I can’t speak for anyone else, but it’s not as if I’m going to be voting for trump in the actual election and I understand how a 2 party fptp election works enough to put my vote in the “capable of having potential to stop supporting genocide” category.
It’s funny that leftists call him genocide joe when Trump would be actively worse and offer additional manpower.
Complain and downvote how you like, but consider which candidate you actually have a chance of getting to agree to your point of view.
No shit, Biden is a genocidal asshole but at least he’s not trump that’s the whole point of the uncommitted campaign
Removed by mod
Then I guess Joe Biden better stop funding a genocide then
Clearly “not committing genocide” is too high a bar for the neoliberal mind to grasp
You mean all of America. Because it’s not as simple as that. We have agreements and contracts and alliances we can’t just get rid of at the drop of a hat without consequences.
We can all stand with Palestine - and yes, I do - but do you also want that happening to the US itself? You really wanna fuck with that hornet’s nest?
A vote against Biden is a vote for Fuckface 45. And he’s worse.
You want that? You want Fuckface 45 again? Say it.
You do not understand the US primary system.
These registered Dems, the only people who can vote in the Democrat primary, know full well the fascist guy is worse https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 he has already said it explicitly on just the genocide of the Palestinians. And we all know that he tried to overthrow the US government and did many illegal things already.
The US can do anything it wants at the drop of a hat. That’s an appeal to authority. Israel is almost completely dependent on US trade and support, they’re literally our proxy in the Middle East. They have fought in explicit proxy wars for us already against other nations. There is plenty of leverage, which is why this movement has stayed urging Biden to end the genocide.
If you stand with Palestine, you should vote uncommitted in the Democratic primary to let the Dems know how many people actually want the killing to end. Because until it does, more and more will be killed. They literally die and are dead. A protest vote with no systemic consequences that boosts the call to end the genocide of the Palestinians is worth it, as many people have calculated.
https://tenor.com/view/john-oliver-cool-sarcasm-sarcastic-gif-8465330
Glad you got it :)
Who is this “they?” Anyone who is voting “uncommitted” has enough brain cells to know both candidates are bad for the world, which means they have enough brain cells to know Biden is an obvious choice in a Biden v Trump matchup.
Those people are voting uncommitted for Fuckface 45 then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Do you understand that in the primary there is no contest between Trump and Biden? Biden’s going to get the Democratic nomination anyway, so voting uncommitted in the primary has no negative consequences in the actual election that happens in November?
No. The answer is no, they don’t understand.
Of course they understand. They just want to frame opposition to genocide as support for Trump.
And you think people aren’t going to keep this mentality for November?
What mentality? The one I’m describing is the “Biden sucks but Trump is way worse” mentality. I don’t see how that results in Trump being elected
The “Biden is complicit and we aren’t voting for him” mentally. Primary or not, this “movement” can gain a lot more momentum going into November than is desired.
This is a dumb take bred from perceived superiority.
Lmao “I got to the polls in November and my muscle memory took over and I voted uncommitted in the general election, since I did it once 8 months ago I couldn’t resist”. This is like Dunning-Kreuger for life in general.
Or is it a “just don’t do anything” enlightened centrist take?
Ivan Cantu got over 150k signatures for a stay of execution, and he’s still dead. I’m not a centrist, far from it. I’m a progressive.
But I also understand game theory, psychology, and sociology (all on an admittedly amateur-ish level), as well as how First Past the Post voting works in the US. I’m 100% for a cease fire in Gaza, humanitarian aid, the Israel government to be tried for war crimes, etc. But how YOU are doing it has shown time and again that it doesn’t produce results. Oh, so I guess I know a little history too.
So, for instance, you remember 2020 when George Floyd was murdered in cold blood in the streets and then the world’s largest protest broke out? What happened?
What was accomplished via those protests? Did Police Brutality stop? What about the more pertinent Police Brutality of POC? Did Qualified Immunity cease? How many bad apples are still in the bunch? Police unions get busted? We got a couple of "I’m sorry"s, and a fucking street naming.
You see, while collective action CAN do things (not much), you need to understand that this vote ain’t gonna do fucking squat. You got a 100k+ votes for uncommitted? Yay. Out of 330+ million people in the US. Less than 1%
The general election has been called. And either Biden or Fuckface 45 is gonna win. By recruiting to third party, you’re swaying more people to:
or
I’m not voting for Fuckface 45 in the General Election. Are you?
You wanna stop the genocide today? Take to the streets with a gun in hand. Take to Israel with a gun in hand. Take to a senator’s house with a gun in hand. Don’t self immolate, you’ll just kill one of your comrades in arms.
While I don’t think everyday life should ever have a gun in hand, when you want IMMEDIATE political / wartime change, non-violence solves nothing. (this goes for protests against police brutality, bring a gun - take the mask mandate protests, they were armed, they got what they wanted)
But if you want gradual policy change: vote local, campaign local, work with a local candidate, etc.
Otherwise, you’re just trying to find your friends, and you’re making enemies of possible allies.
Just because trump is an infinitely low bar doesn’t mean Biden isn’t actively supporting genocide.
I’m sick of seeing “But Trump is worse!!!1!” whenever there is a discussion of how fucking terrible Biden can be, especially on his candid genocide support. And the cries from the Democratic party to fall in line behind a president that is failing to support the will of the people in that party is a bit shitty, even though it is inevitable in such a hierarchical power structure.
Like, the problem isn’t “who would support genocide less” it is “why the fuck is the president supporting genocide” and the other question we should be asking is “what is causing us to be in the position that we are debating on who is the lesser evil pro genocide candidate”
Also, I’d like to point out that biden is a hardcore zionist. He will never not be a hardcore zionist. He will never be convinced to stop supporting israel, and we will lucky to even convince him to stop supporting israel until the genocide stops. Or to just call for a ceasefire now.
I’ll hardcore pass on voting for a treasonous bastard. I’m already amazed that we didn’t nuke the fucking planet when trump was in office. I’m not giving him a second chance.
Same. I’m not going to vote for an christofascist cunt who wants to take my rights as a queer person, or the rights of the people I care about.
I’m simply sick of the “BuT TrUmp!!!1” that is always shouted whenever people criticize biden. Every president is a war criminal. Biden deserves his criticism, even though trump is also culpable.
100% criticize away! I’m just getting annoyed by seeing all of the “don’t vote Biden” bullshit lately.
Imo an acceptable alternative is “remember to vote for the lesser evil!”
Or even my favorite, “write your congresspersons to stop the genocide!”
I’m gonna push back a little on that thought.
Saying “don’t vote Biden” is very important, actually, and it’s hardly bullshit.
First and foremost, when you are in the mindset that voting is all you can do, saying “Don’t vote for Biden” opens up a great conversation about voting, democracy, racism, and pretty much any issue that is tied to the US government. These conversations are important, and must happen. There is a radical praxis to not voting, whether you’d like it or not. If voting for one of two parties is the only acceptable form of political action, than not voting, voting third party, or something else (such as setting up prefigurative structures) is a good, radical action.
Before you point this out, I do have issue with how many leftists, communists, and anarchists just skip this conversation online, or say something like “Oh, these conversations have happened before, just read this book” or some nonsense. I get that having this conversation a million times is exhausting, but it’s important. You don’t have to do it every time, but if you are able to jump in and take over, you should!
If this conversation is good, it should point out that the supposed “democracy” we have is not only fragile, and being taken over by fascists, but that it was really only a democracy for a small group, not the idyllic idea of the majority getting their say and representation. It should also point out that this “democracy” has been a tool used against minorities as a cudgel, bringing pain and suffering for centuries. It should point out that there are many positions that the majority of the public want, like social/single payer healthcare, yet we have a top aide to the democratic speaker of the house, telling lobbyists to not worry about it!.
Second, Biden is not entitled to any voting, and he needs to be reminded of that with the threat of non-voting, and anti-voting advocacy. The idea that someone is entitled to your vote on the basis that they are not someone (IE: the lesser evil) else is antithetical to the core concept of democracy: bringing power and representation to the people (often through majority voting). Imagine that you have two candidates in a FPTP voting system, one person that is 100% hitler, and another who is 80% hitler. It is obvious that the lesser evil is the one that is 80% hitler, but if the country consists of primarily people who want a 0% hitler candidate, how is the 80% hitler, the lesser evil candidate, a representative of the people? How does that 80% hitler candidate represent the majority of the people? Isn’t that antithetical to the very concept of democracy that such a candidate can exist?
I get that it is a tactical position to vote for biden, considering that trump is so awful. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize someone for voting this way because it is genuinely a logical and reasonable conclusion, but I do think that the thought process that got them there needs a bit of evaluation.
Third, threatening to not vote for biden (and especially staying true to that threat) is good, actually. I’ve already mentioned that biden is not entitled to a vote, but it’s also important to mention that biden is a human being who has the capability of acting to fix this. “Remember to vote for the lesser evil!” is, unfortunately, placing the blame for biden’s actions on the individuals affected by it, rather than the person who did the actions in the first place. Thinking solely from this mindset does not hold biden accountable to his actions, and often leads to blame being placed on people for not voting against their interests.
Finally, you mention “writing to your congresspersons”. I think this is a great idea, but it should not be the only mechanisms of political action aside from voting. I can safely tell you that this is often ineffective. One of my best friends was an aide to a representative in congress for a few years before and during Trump’s presidency. He has been at the receiving end of a calling campaign from some bigots in my state advocating for an anti-trans bathroom bill, and he told me at some point, he stopped paying attention to it, and he was getting pissed off because it was taking up his time that could otherwise be spent working with residents of the state with other problems, such as social security, VA benefits, etc.
Since my dinner break is coming to a close, all I can really do is be that annoying leftist who shoves a book in your face and recommend a short(ish) book that I loved reading about democracy and voting, and the myths it promotes. Crimethinc.'s “From Democracy to Freedom” is freely available as a PDF online through the publisher, Crimethinc.
This will sound terrible of me, but while this was a truly wonderful and thought provoking post I am the worst person to reply to it as I fatigue quickly from replying with a respectfully long post.
That being said, I’ll give the book a read! I also agree with the idea of voting 3rd party. I personally don’t have such a party I agree with but if you do, I want you to vote the way you feel.
That’s completely fine, I’ve gotten that leftist 4 hour video essay brain where I just simply use way too many words to explain myself
I think that’s the point behind voting uncommitted in the primary. It’s to put some heat on the candidate that actually has the potential to change their mind and do something. I can’t speak for anyone else, but it’s not as if I’m going to be voting for trump in the actual election and I understand how a 2 party fptp election works enough to put my vote in the “capable of having potential to stop supporting genocide” category.
Tankies are only aesthetically left
I don’t think OP is a tankie.
ok