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Technically the metric system is “the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce” as per the Metric Conversion Act of 1975.
You’re just also allowed to use lbs and feet and stuff and most people do.
The versions of imperial measurements the US uses are even defined in terms of metric units, so they’re less a completely separate measurement system these days and more just a weird facade on top of metric, even.
And in the sciences and drug dealing and the military, we use metric exclusively.
But for some idiotic reason, construction engineers often use imperial units and I have no idea why. Like buildings are built in pounds and feet and stuff, with half inch bolts and 2x4 (ish) lumber and half inch plywood. It’s idiotic.
I don’t generally defend imperial, but feet and inches are actually really useful in construction. Base 12 is easily divisible by 2, 4, and 3. You often need to divide architectural elements in thirds.
That might be somewhat useful if it was consistently applied, which it is not.
And it’s maybe useful for fractions, but how many feet are in a mile again? 5280? A square yard is what now… 1296 square inches?! Who the fuck is supposed to memorize all that?
What’s a 1/4 square yard in square inches?
That’s not easy, that’s putting the mental into mental arithmetic.
Again people making me defend imperial, I think metric is better.
I see this argument all the time, converting between these units is hard cause the numbers are weird. You have to stop thinking about imperial as a system, it’s not. No one should convert miles to feet, they are not intended to measure on the same scale.
None of the conversions are easy because imperial is just a random collection of units that were being used to measure different things.
Yeah, no one should be able to make a quick sanity check for things that span multiple powers.
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“Hey Bob, we have 5000 of those 78 ft rails, that enough for the 100 mile railroad?”
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“What do I look like, a fucking calculator?”
vs
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“Hallo Heinz, how mäny hecto-liter do ve kneed für 1000 0.5l bottles of Bier?”
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“20, boss.”
The amount of people going completely out of their way to die on their little cubic ft hill actually defending they’re incapable of easily and consistenly calculating units is just utterly ridiculous. “Nobody should be doing this!!!1!”
No, wait, the people in here telling people that “dozenal” is superior, but not realizing they’re not using a “dozenal” system at all, they’re just counting to twelve in decimal. Those are also making me question whether humans actually went to the moon…
Keep putting those words in my mouth. I’m not dieing on any hill, just trying to provide some context about why imperial is so weird. I still think metric is better.
You seem really upset about something that really doesn’t matter that much, are you okay?
Did I mention you specifically when I said „the amount of people…“? See.
And if it doesn’t matter much to you, why do you keep commenting? Nobody’s „making“ you defend anything. Are you okay?
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As a former structural engineer who lived on a Jobber 5 all day, that’s still pretty niche overall. Easier because it’s what your used to maybe, but outweighed by situations where it’s not. Try doing trig with fractions and then tell me imperial is better.
Does it matter whether you punch 3/8 or .375 into a calculator? Don’t tell me you calculate stuff by hand…
Trig is literally the math where you start dividing a circle in fractions and doing the math in base 360.
What the hell are you talking about?
I’m talking about trig using feet and inches. You know, rise, run, slope… Have you ever used trig outside of school? I don’t understand what you’re confused about.
right now i use it for waves and reflections. that’s all fractions and degrees. before it was machining and tbh for me that was faster to go to the book for the answers than calculate everything out.
truly trigonometry is a land of contrasts.
Screw that, we’ll make them use Metric. BY FORCE!
You are being democratized, please do not resist.
Yep, that’s what Napoleon did…
How do you plan to do that when each of us is issued an assault rifle at birth and our military is 20x bigger than the next closest military? In other words, bring it on!
Regan also never bothered to reinstate Imperial standards at the bureau of weights and measures (because it would have cost a small fortune). So our units are officially defined by the their metric counterpart. Legally speaking an inch is 2.54 centimeters.
Base 12 is way more logical than base 10, I bet aliens would think we’re stupid for counting in base 10 just because we have 10 fingers, my opinion on this is infallible fight me
At least Americans are consistent. I think Canadians are the most confused.
Height: imperial
Weight: imperial
Long distance: metric or time
Short distance: feet
Cooking: imperial
Filling gasoline: metric
Temperature: Celsius
Height of mountains: metric
Cruising altitude: imperial
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When I find a wood working video on YouTube from the states it blows my mind how anyone can not just adopt metric “This is 5” 4/57 and we need to cut it to 5” 5/45 and a half” bzzzzzzz.
I may be biased, but I think it kinda makes sense. All the fractions are really just powers of two:
One half
One quarter
One eighth
One sixteenth
One thirtysecond
etc.Oh yeah, totally makes more sense to say “it’s 3/64ths of an inch” than “it’s 2 millimeters.” Completely reasonable.
So reasonable, in fact, that in most manufacturing that still uses imperial measurements they long ago abandoned fractions and moved to decimal inches.
Which leads to unholy abominations such as the wood shop sending over “cut off 3/64ths” and the metal shop cutting off 0.046875".
Every time anyone talks about this, I feel obligated to inform them: there’s also a counting system that’s not based on ten, and it’s way superior. Do people know about it? Most don’t. The Wikipedia page stupidly calls it the “ten-plus-two” system, and there have been heated arguments there with the dumbasses who refuse to change it to the logical name. That’s how stupidly-biased people are towards the ten-based system.
You make a “metric” measurement system based on 12-based counting and then everyone wins. Everyone. It’ll never happen of course.
You’re not really helping your case by omitting the real name (but complaining about the Wikipedia name) and sharing why it’s superior.
I loosely tried to find it and didn’t find anything explicitly named 10+2 or “ten-plus-two”.
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Wikipedia seems to be pretty clear about the naming. You must be fun at parties!
Sumerians picked base 60, which is the minimum common multiple of “1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6”, which is far superior to either 10 (MCM of only “1, 2, 5”), or 12 (MCM of “1, 2, 3, 4”).
But the average people had trouble counting to 60, so they used their fingers… which happen to be 10, which happens to be 1/6 of 60… and they called it “good enough”.
We still use base 60 for minutes and seconds, base 6*60 (360) for angular degrees, and base 2*12 (24) for hours… which is at least something.
Base 60 isn’t superior or even reasonable for human mathematical operations. It’s not like 5 is as important of a number as 6. If we all had 6 fingers, 5 would be treated in the same way that 7 is.
Base 60 is both superior and reasonable: it’s easily divisible by the first 6 integers. There is a reason we still use it all the time (pun intended).
Base 420 would be the next one, if human brains didn’t struggle with holding 7 separate items at once in short term operative memory.
420 lol !trees@somewhere.lemmy
I don’t think you understand. You want a small base if you want to do everyday human operations. I guess it might be hard for a lot of people to comprehend because you’re so used to thinking in tens, that you don’t realize that if you stopped dividing 60 by 10 automatically, “60” would not be a digestible base number.
Furthermore, “using 60 a lot” is not the same as counting base-60. Base-60 means there is no ten to fall back on. 60 would be your “small group” number, and that would be that.
Let’s say I counted: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y 10 11 12 13…
2*u=10, u0/3=a0, A/7=5
No need to “divide by 10”, and we even have enough symbols already. All it would take is getting used to… just like what we did for years over and over in primary.
For “everyday human operations” you can just count: 0 5 a f k p u A F K P U 10… or 0 6 c i o u B H N T 10… or 0 a k u A K U 10… or 0 c o B N 10… or 0 f K 10… and so on. Notice how division by any multiple of 2, 3, 5, becomes much easier:
1/2=0.u, 1/3=0.f, 1/4=0.k, 1/5=0.c, 1/60=0.0a
Look at what happens with fractions:
2/3=0.K, 3/5=0.B, 5/12=0.p
-facepalm-
“Not learning your base 60 division tables… paddle to the face”
Going back all the way to your original comment. Counting to 60 is not the same as counting base-60, unlike this comment and a ton of your replies. 60 minutes in an hour isn’t base-60 counting. Unless you write one sixty as “10” and two sixties as “20”, you are not counting base-60. Because the tens digit means one group— no matter the size— and the zero after it means none extra. For the love of god please read a book.
A truly logic system would be entirely designed around a base-12 number system. But we were born with an imperfect set of 10 fingers and that doomed us.
Those aliens have 6 fingers. It’s an absolutely ironic twist that their discussion on measuring systems is super illogical for them, and yet logical is the verbiage they use.
Care to elaborate on how base 12 would be better than base 10 in this case?
Basically it’s because 12 is more divisible than 10. Factors of 10 are 1,2,5 and 10. 12 has 1,2,3,4,6 and 12. This gives more flexibility when discussing numbers. Our time is technically using base 12, which is why we can say quarter past 4 and it means a traditional whole number. That’s the argument I’ve heard anyway
I feel like this is my wheel house.
how about we all agree that the best system is american units with metric prefixes. After all it is obvious that it takes an hours to drive 318 kilofeet
Ah nice, this should be a constructive dialogue between open minded and empathetic individuals.
grabs popcorn
I’ll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/iJymKowx8cY
TLDW: metric is better because all the different kinds of units were designed to work together.
Where as imperial units developed organically, within specific trades/use cases. They’re not all supposed to work together.
I use imperial because that’s what I was raised with, but I recognize metric is better in many ways. My only gripe with metric is the gap in units between Centimeters and Meters. A foot is convenient size for most things.
In this thread: people bending over backwards to defend their insane, non-logical unit of measurement
Logical, mathematically convenient, but not practically convenient. Without a measuring tool, there’s no good way to estimate anything besides a centimeter.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
An inch is your distal thumb phalanx. A foot is your foot. A mile is, or was at one point, roughly 1,000 paces.
The weather can be estimated by going outside. Is it too hot? It’s in the upper third of the 100 degree scale. Too cold? Lower third, might snow. Cool enough to fully dress, but not too cold, right in the middle.
A healthy, big person is about 200 lbs. A very small person is about 100 lbs.
Converting between these units is useful in science, which is why science uses metric. But you could live your entire life on earth and never need to know how many distal phanages are in 1,000 paces. It literally never comes up. Who cares?
It’s why units are divided into fractions, rather than into a decimal system.
By the way, the only reason we use a base 10 numbering system in the first place is because we have ten fingers and it was easier for early mathematicians to count. But I digress.
If you’re dividing a length of rope, and all you have is the rope, it’s simple to divide it in half, and then half again, and then again in half. You could even divide into thirds, if you were feeling frisky. You just fold it over itself until the lengths are even. There are two friendly numbers that are difficult to do that with, though. Can you guess what they are? If you guessed 5 and 10, you nailed it, good job.
Same with piles of grain or hunks of beef or chunks of precious metals.
But what about units of volume, you ask? I don’t have a part of my body that holds roughly 8 oz of fluid to pour out. No, for that you’ll need a cup. Just a cup. Not a graduated cup with a bunch of little lines down the side. 1 cup. Or half a cup, or a third, or maybe a quarter cup. Again, easily divisible for easy measuring without any special tools.
But a gallon, you protest. A gallon is 16 cups! What the fuck is 16 cups good for? Why not 10 or 100, or create a decigallon for simple math? Because 16 can be divided in half 4 times. Measuring out portions of the whole is as simple as pouring out equal portions into similarly sized containers. Divisible numbers are easier to use without graduated equipment.
And that’s why time is measured in 24 hours, each hour is 60 minutes, each minute is 60 seconds. There’s a ton of history there, and we’ll ignore for this discussion the inaccuracy of measuring a day or a year. If the metric system is entirely superior, why don’t you demand we all switch to metric time? A year will still be roughly 365 days (again, setting aside the inaccuracy) but we could divide the day into 10 equal metric hours, or mours, and those mours into 100 metric minutes, or metrinutes, and then those metrinutes into 100 metric seconds, or meconds. 1 mecond would be 0.864 seconds, and a metrinute would be 1.44 minutes, which to most people would be an imperceptible difference in time. Hey, how many seconds is 1.44 minutes? You don’t know without a calculator because we don’t use metric for time, and it probably never bothered you once before now. What an insane, non-logical unit of measure time is.
Yes, metric let’s us convert millimeters to kilometers, or helps us determine how many calories it take increase 1 cubic centimeter of water by 10 degrees kelvin. It helps with those things because the units are arbitrarily defined to make the math easier, not to make the measurement easier. But that’s it, there’s no additional sanity, no additional logic. It’s easier to convert between units via math, because it was designed to be easier to convert between units via math. There are no additional benefits to the metric system.
A foot is a foot. Fantastic. Glad to know everyone has the same sized feet.
And the same length on their legs so we all pace the same distance.
I would say good troll, but it just seems too long to be ironic.
There aren’t many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important. Modern humans can measure distances with lasers and satellite coordinates. You probably own a tape measure and at least one type of scale. But unless you’re building something, baking something, or selling something by weight, estimates are almost as good as knowing something precisely.
We see the same in countries that us metric. Most people estimate how many meters, kgs, or liters things are because taking the time to accurately measure isn’t necessary. Maybe your phone tracks your daily jog, but that’s only going to be accurate to within a few meters, and most people would round off to the nearest significant digit anyway.
Yes. People estimate things. Because we don’t carry around a scale in our pockets. What does that have to do with anything?
The point of metric system is that things should be scaleable. And relatable. Between different types of measurements, such as weight and volume.
Yes, that’s the point. The imperial system has been succesful and remains popular because people do carry around (rough) scales with us most of the time, and because the advantage of being accurate and scalable really isn’t that useful in day to day living. Having a single unit of measure for the length of a aheet of paper and the distance to the nearest city isn’t a significant advantage for most people in most applications. I don’t need to know how many inches are in a mile, because the conversion usually isn’t necessary. The point of the metric system you’ve described has no advantage in most normal use cases, and we use it when it does have an advantage.
What do you mean “remain popular”? The imperial system has roughly 500 million users. While metric has over 7 billion.
And even in the countries where imperial is used, the scientific community in them still use metric.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don’t even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don’t know how to use the tool, doesn’t mean it’s not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn’t necessary, it’s gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Your argument boils down to you telling us writing is pointless because no one knows how to read.
Ofc they can’t read when there’s nothing to read.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don’t even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don’t know how to use the tool, doesn’t mean it’s not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn’t necessary, it’s gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Are you under the impression that Americans don’t know how to use the metric system? We learn to use it in elementary school. We regularly go between the two and relate them to each other.
Your comment is unnecessarily arrogant based on complete ignorance.
There aren’t many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important […] unless you’re building something, baking something, or selling something by weight
Yeah, because building, baking, or selling something by weight are totally not important and absolutely common “instances in normal life” 🤡
Good fucking grief…
Correct, the vast majority of humans won’t build, bake, or sell anything that requires scalable units of measure. A cup of milk doesn’t need to be precisely 237 mL of milk, nor would most people need to scale their recipe to feed 1,000. If you’re building a shed, dimensional lumber is plenty precise, and it doesn’t require converting the height of a ceiling into miles.
Jesus wept 🤦♀️
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
But hey, be my guest trying to gauge that cup on your beaker that’s 10% off.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using
1 degree Fahrenheit contains the same amount of heat as 1.8 degrees Celsius. The base unit provides more definition. If you’re limited to just whole numbers, Fahrenheit will give you more precise information about heat.
Of course, decimals exist, so it really isn’t a big deal.
For someone so belligerent about something so inconsequential, you’re also entirely wrong about almost everything. Ice your britches.
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
Baldercrap. One of the primary advantages of the metric system is that it can scale down for additional precision as necessary. Metric easily scales infinitely in both directions, so you only need one unit of measure for each type of measurement. Imperial units don’t easily scale, so the level of precision is tightly bound to the unit you select. You’re not going to get the same precision from miles that I will from inches. So that was a stupid thing to say angrily.
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
Yeah, that’s why I brought up baking as an example. But the cool thing about baking is that recipes exist in both metric and imperial units. I can measure my flour in ounces if I want, and take a teaspoon of salt, half a cup of milk, one large egg, and there’s never any reason to convert between those units because who cares? I’m not making dough for 1,000 loaves, nor would I ever need to figure one one-thousanth of a loaf, so metric doesn’t provide any advantages for the typical home baker.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
With a digital scale, sure. I have one and it’s great. I highly recommend it especially for baking. But digital scales weren’t always widely available or inexpensive, and most people don’t own one. Nearly everyone who uses a kitchen to cook will have access to measuring scoops. And not for nothing, but my grandma never measured anything and was an excellent baker. It took years of trial and error but she could adjust her recipes to a humid day to make perfect baked goods.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
That’s why butchers use scales. Grocery stores also use scales for produce and deli produces like cheese. Would it surprise you to learn that the vast majority of humans in America are not butchers or grocers? Their math might be easier with metric, especially when ordering bulk quantities, but for the typical customer, they want an 8 oz steak and a half pound of cheese. So why don’t butchers and grocers use metric?
Because their customers don’t use metric, and there are more customers than butchers or grocers. The conversion between units of measure, the entire reason metric exists, just isn’t a daily consideration. It makes no difference if the steak and the cheese weigh the same, or if you can scale up and down.
Also, another tangential point, most of the math today is handled by computers. Figuring the unit price of a side of beef or a pallet of cheese isn’t something people need to do in their head anymore. The inventory database will effortlessly convert between pounds and ounces and stones and tons. It can even convert everything to metric if you like.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
Gosh, you’re rude. Maybe spend less time attacking me personally and try to think of a valid argument. Or better yet, just go back and actually comprehend what I wrote, and maybe you’ll understand that our positions aren’t really that far apart.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
so I can ask a 9 yr old child to walk out naked to the streets to measure a thing in their foot and:
- I’ll get the exact same answer as if I send an adult priest naked to the street to measure the same thing in their foot
- I’ll not get the priest to rape the kid
?
Those aliens have 3 fingers. A decimal system to them is like a system based on 14, 196, 2744, 38416, … would be like to us - probably worse than US Customary
14, 196, 2744, 38416, … would be like to us - probably worse than US Customary
I mean if they had a base 14 numerical system then a base 14 measurement system would make perfect sense.
Contrary to that, the US does use a decimal system for numbers while the various units in the US customary system do not have any common base.There’s no good way to predict what base they’d actually use for their numbers, but there’s definitely nothing about 10 that makes it an obvious choice for an inter-species standard line the comic implies.
3, 6 or 12 would be overwhelmingly likely though, inferring from all documented human language families
There are some places that do use a base 12 number system.
Again, I wasn’t defending it, just explaining it.
It’s not entirely without logic. Base 12 is actually better that base 10 for a start, as it allows for a lot more fractions that have clean representations, so 12 inches in a foot is fine. The next thing is that people seem to think we have all of these strange units with strange conversions, when in reality we have 3 units for short distances, and then a seperate unit for long distances. 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, and then nobody cares how long a mile is in terms of feet or yards. Once you realize that the mile is not even really part of the same measuring system as inches, feet and yards, the weird conversion makes sense. We exclusively use miles to talk about long distances above 0.1 miles, and then yards are used below 500 yards (which has an overlap of 324 yards). And then for the logic, it is entirely based on actual human scale shit. A foot is called a foot because it is roughly the size of your foot. A yard is approximately how long one stride is. Saying something is 100 yards away means it is approximate 100 steps away. Obviously there will be a bit of variance for how accurate that will be for any given person (and children will have to base it off of an adult obviously), but because it is based more on human things it is more useful for measuring human scale things. It was designed to not use decimals or large numbers because humans don’t comprehend those very well.
Yes very logical, much intuitive
The only thing I still like Fahrenheit for is temperature. There’s a wider range for the human livable temperature, so you get more persision. For everything else metric all the way.
And yes, it’s 100% my American brain can’t figure it out in Celcius no matter how hard I try lmao. 10’s are chill, 20’s are nice, 30’s sind heiß. But in the end, I end up thinking Fahrenheit and going from there every time.
I am not familiar with fahrenheit, but celsius and kelvin allow for decimals. You can have as much precision as you like
I’m going to blow your mind, then.
Look up the human body temperature in Fahrenheit.
Turns out all ways of measuring temperature are linear and equally accurate. All of them have decimals.
I hoped ypu would have noted the sarcasm in the tone of my message. Of course every system has decimals.
Nope! Your fault for making a bad joke. Make it more obvious for idiots next time time.
What makes you think Farenheit is more precise for “human liveable” temperatures?
The temperature is the same. Regardless of which unit you use to document it in.
Which is why I think any argument between Celsius and Fahrenheit is completely arbitrary.
Like, the temperature that water melts and boils is completely dependant on pressure. If I follow a recipe I’ll use the temp they recommend. My computer’s heart gauge uses Celsius. I don’t need to know what it is in Fahrenheit to know if it’s overheating.
