Thats not the argument I was making. But whatever, it still seems like you are admitting there is nuance to this even if Anark is wrong. Which was at the end of the day, all I was trying to say
Yeah a prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison. Nordic prisons sure are nicer than american ones for example, but they’re still prisons and to not call them that is just silly. In the video the only difference to a nordic prison is that it’s managed by a smaller scale community.
prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison
anark: all laws and enumerated measures for reparations and rehabilitation not expressed in the constitution would be outlined. […] Justice: repairing the wrongs that have been done and preventing further ones from being committed
The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment?
Reparations centers are not prisons. Contemporary correctional facilities are slave plantations. So how do we move from private prisons to correcting behavior?
which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don’t have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process?
This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice?
Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that’s cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+.
If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words.
The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment?
And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? I’ll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up.
By the definition of “prison” you’re using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn’t be called prisons. It’s a bad definition. I prefer this one:
a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers
specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes
Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture.
a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers
specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes
By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not?
He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better.
The solution he proposes involves locking “sequestered citizens” up in “monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures” in the case of the worst crimes. That’s a prison.
I’m not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis.
ahistorical assertion.
I didn’t say all of them, I said plenty of…. A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria.
By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children
Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom.
I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis.
literally what he describes earlier in that video…
situation that I have no part in.
wait, you’re not anarchist?
Australia
[…] shaming or public ridicule[…]
exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112]
exclusion from use of facilities[118]
exile to an outstation or another community.[119]
Nigeria
public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5].
creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9].
6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism
Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune.
Literally imprisonment.
Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?’
The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims.
It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom.
so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing?
literally what he describes earlier in that video…
And then he says “they should lock people up”.
wait, you’re not anarchist?
I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian.
Literally imprisonment.
If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we’ll get to that) , I don’t know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR?
The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims.
so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing?
You don’t know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism:
Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy…
A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion.
Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system?
Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs.
Yeah I’m not debating the utility of prisons with an anark fan. It’s a direct quote and you can agree with Anark’s opinion or not, but disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop.
Nowhere have I stated I am a fan of anyone here. I am exposing contexts you and comrade_spood@quokk.au seem to be omitting off your excerpts. I quoted the whole essays, with contexts provided.
disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop.
“David” is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There’s no lower form of life than a copjacketer.
The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons.
Let’s assume you’re right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages.
The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons.
Sure, masturbation isn’t authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again?
You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you’ll realize a website is no important, what’s important are the connections we make in the real world.
It’s just quoting Anark’s own words: https://www.reddit.com/r/Postleftanarchism/comments/1viq2uy/yes_youtube_personality_anark_wants_to_build/
This is just what the CNT-FAI did with POWs during the Spanish Civil War. Whether that is a prison, I would say, is debatable.
The CNT-FAI having prisoners of war while under attack by fascist forces isn’t the same as making plans to build prisons in your ideal society.
And they are still prisons, they don’t become not-prisons when anarchists build them.
Thats not the argument I was making. But whatever, it still seems like you are admitting there is nuance to this even if Anark is wrong. Which was at the end of the day, all I was trying to say
Did you even bother to look up the context of this excerpt?
cc @comrade_spood@quokk.au @deme@sopuli.xyz
Yeah a prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison. Nordic prisons sure are nicer than american ones for example, but they’re still prisons and to not call them that is just silly. In the video the only difference to a nordic prison is that it’s managed by a smaller scale community.
The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment?
Reparations centers are not prisons. Contemporary correctional facilities are slave plantations. So how do we move from private prisons to correcting behavior?
Anark’s comment sound like liberalism.
How so?
“laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”.
People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the “I’m totally radical” without any self critique.
This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark:
https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination
which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don’t have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process?
This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice?
Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that’s cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+.
If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words.
And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? I’ll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up.
By the definition of “prison” you’re using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn’t be called prisons. It’s a bad definition. I prefer this one:
Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture.
He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better.
ahistorical assertion.
By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not?
¹Anark’s definition.
The solution he proposes involves locking “sequestered citizens” up in “monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures” in the case of the worst crimes. That’s a prison. I’m not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis.
I didn’t say all of them, I said plenty of…. A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria.
Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom.
literally what he describes earlier in that video…
wait, you’re not anarchist?
Literally imprisonment.
The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims.
so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing?
And then he says “they should lock people up”.
I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian.
If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we’ll get to that) , I don’t know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR?
You don’t know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism:
A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system?
Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs.
Yeah I’m not debating the utility of prisons with an anark fan. It’s a direct quote and you can agree with Anark’s opinion or not, but disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop.
Nowhere have I stated I am a fan of anyone here. I am exposing contexts you and comrade_spood@quokk.au seem to be omitting off your excerpts. I quoted the whole essays, with contexts provided.
what are you talking about, David’s article‽
“David” is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There’s no lower form of life than a copjacketer.
The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons.
Let’s assume you’re right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages.
How do you then reform wrong doers?
Being an admin of a website no one visits isn’t authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning.
Sure, masturbation isn’t authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again?
You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you’ll realize a website is no important, what’s important are the connections we make in the real world.