The only thing different is the speed run by cribbing other people’s notes.
Fucking hilarious. You can just look at homelessness, cost of living, rent, nutrition - by all measures the difference is organizing society to maximize the benefit to the masses.
The problem is once hierarchies become set. Abject poverty returns and becomes inevitable.
China is the longest running communist-led experiment and I know you anarchists have no problem identifying that China has a strong hierarchy and yet poverty alleviation is still happening at a mass scale. So, your “theory” doesn’t fit the evidence
You are comparing late-stage capitalist Nations to ones that are just starting. It’s an apples to oranges comparison. How has allowing for Millionaires and billionaires maximized the benefit to the masses? Talk about fucking hilarious. The rhetoric is good but China’s Praxis is going to fail just like everyone else who’s tried it. It’s already slowing and calcifying. Younger Generations becoming restless and unaccepting of their governments failures. Just like in the west. It’s not magic.
You are comparing late-stage capitalist Nations to ones that are just starting.
The Bolshevik revolution occurred before the Western “green revolution” in agriculture, and they started from serfdom, and still the Soviets were able to achieve poverty alleviation in 30 years that took liberal democracies almost 150 years achieve. And the outcomes after that were still incredible, with rents costing less than 10% of income and homelessness eradicated, things the West has never achieved.
China started in 1949 having been subjugated by multiple European powers and Japan for over a century, with the Western drug dealers getting over a third of Chinese people hooked on opium. They were literally the poorest country on the planet in 1949 and again, within 50 years had achieved more poverty alleviation than the entire Western world combined had achieved in 200. And they did it without taking over an entire continent and committing a genocide that killed 90% of the original inhabitants.
How has allowing for Millionaires and billionaires maximized the benefit to the masses?
The same way capitalism in the West benefited from allowing millionaires and billionaires - efficient allocation of resources in a complex economy. That’s what capitalism is good at. No one argues against that. Even Marx acknowledged why capitalism emerged and the effectiveness of the system.
The difference is that under a liberal ideology of “fuck you, I got mine” we developed robber barons while labor unions were beaten to death by private and state police and coal miners were bombed from airplanes, whereas under a communist party the profit accrued to the millionaires and billionaires went hand-in-hand with massive poverty alleviation. I mean, it’s quite explicit, well documented, analyzed, and all of Communist theory from the beginning can make sense of it. That you think the existence of private wealth pockets must inherently mean that the people get no benefit is you projecting the history of liberalism onto systems that aren’t as depraved as liberalism.
The rhetoric is good but China’s Praxis is going to fail just like everyone else who’s tried it.
So you admit that it hasn’t failed yet, and that far from being purely rhetoric, it’s actually worked.
It’s already slowing and calcifying.
Economic growth is not an independent nation-state thing. It’s a global economy thing. And China’s growth is 2x - 4x higher than the most powerful economies in the West. You’re basically saying that just because it’s winter, the falling temperatures disprove global warming. China’s growth is still second in the world, with India’s growth leading.
Just like in the west. It’s not magic.
The only magic here is just how effective Western propaganda is at making you disbelieve all th evidence in front of you. It’s not magic that communism outperforms capitalism. It’s not magic that communism focuses on the quality of the life of the masses. It’s not magic that liberalism has failed. Liberalism believes in magic like “if we enshrine moral values into our government, we will thrive and prosper”. Anarchism believes in magic like “hierarchies are evil and produce abject poverty and eliminating hierarchies is both possible and will result in thriving and prosperity”
Poverty in soviet union was alleviated only because everyone not important in the party was poor and poverty is usually defined as your income compared to the average.
China I’m not even going to pretend is a communist country, they’re doing capitalism better than most western countries. Having super cheap labour is pretty great for that as it turns out. The main problem western countries have these days is that everyone wants to be paid a ton of money for their work.
Fucking hilarious. You can just look at homelessness, cost of living, rent, nutrition - by all measures the difference is organizing society to maximize the benefit to the masses.
China is the longest running communist-led experiment and I know you anarchists have no problem identifying that China has a strong hierarchy and yet poverty alleviation is still happening at a mass scale. So, your “theory” doesn’t fit the evidence
You are comparing late-stage capitalist Nations to ones that are just starting. It’s an apples to oranges comparison. How has allowing for Millionaires and billionaires maximized the benefit to the masses? Talk about fucking hilarious. The rhetoric is good but China’s Praxis is going to fail just like everyone else who’s tried it. It’s already slowing and calcifying. Younger Generations becoming restless and unaccepting of their governments failures. Just like in the west. It’s not magic.
The Bolshevik revolution occurred before the Western “green revolution” in agriculture, and they started from serfdom, and still the Soviets were able to achieve poverty alleviation in 30 years that took liberal democracies almost 150 years achieve. And the outcomes after that were still incredible, with rents costing less than 10% of income and homelessness eradicated, things the West has never achieved.
China started in 1949 having been subjugated by multiple European powers and Japan for over a century, with the Western drug dealers getting over a third of Chinese people hooked on opium. They were literally the poorest country on the planet in 1949 and again, within 50 years had achieved more poverty alleviation than the entire Western world combined had achieved in 200. And they did it without taking over an entire continent and committing a genocide that killed 90% of the original inhabitants.
The same way capitalism in the West benefited from allowing millionaires and billionaires - efficient allocation of resources in a complex economy. That’s what capitalism is good at. No one argues against that. Even Marx acknowledged why capitalism emerged and the effectiveness of the system.
The difference is that under a liberal ideology of “fuck you, I got mine” we developed robber barons while labor unions were beaten to death by private and state police and coal miners were bombed from airplanes, whereas under a communist party the profit accrued to the millionaires and billionaires went hand-in-hand with massive poverty alleviation. I mean, it’s quite explicit, well documented, analyzed, and all of Communist theory from the beginning can make sense of it. That you think the existence of private wealth pockets must inherently mean that the people get no benefit is you projecting the history of liberalism onto systems that aren’t as depraved as liberalism.
So you admit that it hasn’t failed yet, and that far from being purely rhetoric, it’s actually worked.
Economic growth is not an independent nation-state thing. It’s a global economy thing. And China’s growth is 2x - 4x higher than the most powerful economies in the West. You’re basically saying that just because it’s winter, the falling temperatures disprove global warming. China’s growth is still second in the world, with India’s growth leading.
The only magic here is just how effective Western propaganda is at making you disbelieve all th evidence in front of you. It’s not magic that communism outperforms capitalism. It’s not magic that communism focuses on the quality of the life of the masses. It’s not magic that liberalism has failed. Liberalism believes in magic like “if we enshrine moral values into our government, we will thrive and prosper”. Anarchism believes in magic like “hierarchies are evil and produce abject poverty and eliminating hierarchies is both possible and will result in thriving and prosperity”
Poverty in soviet union was alleviated only because everyone not important in the party was poor and poverty is usually defined as your income compared to the average.
China I’m not even going to pretend is a communist country, they’re doing capitalism better than most western countries. Having super cheap labour is pretty great for that as it turns out. The main problem western countries have these days is that everyone wants to be paid a ton of money for their work.