Source https://lemmy.zip/post/72029200/29026430
Join the lemmy.ml boycott today and help foster a better Lemmy-verse! No more posts, comments (except to counter their propaganda ofc!) or upvotes on any comms on the Lemmy.ml instance! To make this easy you can do an instance block at Settings > Block Tab > Scroll to bottom > Input “lemmy.ml” and apply
And consider donating to individual instances instead.
Check the megathread for more!
This has some truths in it but they are taken to extreme and modified to suit their own beliefs
Yeah 😅👍. I don’t think Taiwan is a dictatorship (or if it is, I didn’t realise) but the system of analysis that treats the USA as a Global Empire coercing countries into being their vassal states… it is accurate
Main weird thing in the post is that the OOP uses the term “Amerikkkan” unironically
Based and factual.
Of course, blocate all those who think an other way than you, so you won’t understand their arguments. Their is only one good way of thinking and all those who disagree with you are paid or stupid… And you want democratie so eâeryone can express their opinion and discuss them… but only as long as they agree with you…
What compels people to be like this?
Reading non US propaganda and realizing these are both US neocolonies.
Roughly one third of any given population tends to be authoritarian.
This isn’t the gotcha people think. These guys think China is a socialist state as it pumps out more billionaires than the US for the third straight year. It may just be me, but creating the fastest growing billionaire class in the world is completely incompatible with communism, let alone socialism. To make a long story short, they are delusional. Even worse than an American who thinks the US are the good guys.
They justify it by claiming the CCP has their fist so far up those billionaire asses that really it’s the proletariat controlling all that wealth all along!
It’s the same people claiming the Soviets were socialists, rather than hyper capitalists.
They’re an oligarchical setup, just like the soviets were, just like Russia is, just like the US is.
I currently live in Taiwan and can confirm is not a dictatorship. The KMT just blocked the president on buying more defensive weapons from the USA because they are all China shills.
Holy shit. My brain hurts from that last comment. Taiwan a “dictatorship of the bourgeoisie”? They ignore the fact that workers literally have worse rights and healtthcare coverage in the PRC and you arent even allowed to criticize government corruption in the PRC. You only have a chance if you are a ruthless government bureaucrat, party member and possibly a STEM major (see technocracy).
Also side note: since goat disappeared again, admins made me the mod again.
Dictatorship of the bourgeois doesn’t mean the same thing as just a dictatorship. Marx when he invented the terms dictatorship of the proletariat was referring to which class get what they want out of the government, not referring to a totalitarian single ruler control.
By the Marxist definition every western country is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
even overwhelmingly large pro-change majorities, with 80 percent of the public favoring a policy change, got that change only about 43 percent of the time.
this is the case in america, I don’t know of a similar study done by taiwan, but it’s likely the case there as well.
I love when a definition is so broad that it covers every case you can basically think of. lol
Yes, that’s the purpose of it, marx was talking about the structure of the entire world, vs potential future structures, during his time there was only feudalism and dictatorships of the bourgeois, he was imagining potential alternatives in the future.
I didn’t assume it meant a single ruler system though. Also by Marxist definition, at least according to MLs single party dictatorships that concentrate power in a ruling elite while giving workers shitty employment conditions are supposedly dictatorships of the proletariat when they are far from it.
And my point is that MLs spout a lot of BS about countries that often have better conditions for workers than supposed socialist states. It especially goes for comparing a modern, hybrid system state or a welfare capitalist state to China or North Korea.
Also by Marxist definition, at least according to MLs single party dictatorships that concentrate power in a ruling elite while giving workers shitty employment conditions are supposedly dictatorships of the proletariat when they are far from it.
they disagree that it’s the states giving them shitty employment conditions, and disagree that power is being concentrated in a ruling elite, you’d just have to demonstrate these two things to them.
And my point is that MLs spout a lot of BS about countries that often have better conditions for workers than supposed socialist states.
they believe this is because the material conditions allowed for those advances and didn’t allow for them in socialist states for various reasons outside of state control, ex: the embargo on cuba.
Which doesn’t make sense since material conditions aren’t an excuse to not give workers rights. Like Yugoslavia wasn’t necessarily wealthy when they gave their workers control over their own workplaces.
So, next time you make this argument, if you want to have an actual dialog, specify which working conditions should be granted to the people, show that they are not, purely because of the political system and then you’ll have an argument!
I think to this they would say yugoslavia is not exactly a great example, that system failed rather dramatically.
deleted by creator
Man I thought I was the only one. I just got banned from their memes instance for saying people should vote. Like at all.
Theres a reason .ml is commonly considered to be awful. Its rather funny everytime someone from .ml comes up claiming to just “be there by accident” or “was their first instance and they never bothered to change” Then get upset when people lump them in with the rest of .ml
The consensus is earned, and if you hang out in the stupid bar as they say.
Dictatorship of the bourgeois doesn’t mean the same thing as just a dictatorship. Marx when he invented the terms dictatorship of the proletariat was referring to which class get what they want out of the government, not referring to a totalitarian single ruler control.
By the Marxist definition every western country is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
western south Korea taiwan
Calling legitimate democracies any kind of dictatorships is simply disingenuous. Its just not what words mean. If the majority of people vote for something, that thing they voted for is the will of the people. And if the people/parties they voted for are able to take power, the majority of the populace “got what they want”. And if they want a capitalist system with billionaires, well, thats what they are going to get. I feel like a lot of leftists end up stuck saying things like “people in western societies are brainwashed/they dont know what they really want (and I do)” to explain why countries dont want them in power.
even overwhelmingly large pro-change majorities, with 80 percent of the public favoring a policy change, got that change only about 43 percent of the time.
this is the case in america, I don’t know of a similar study done by taiwan, but it’s likely the case there as well.
It’s clear that the peoples vote hardly matters.
Well, by all means continue to not vote then.
That’s a strawman. It still got that change 43% of the time, and I vote every election!
This is also you not engaging with their arguments. Nobody says don’t vote, they say voting is comparatively pointless next to organization. The study basically proves that if you want change the most meaningful thing you can do is organize and strike, no?
Nobody is saying don’t vote, they’re saying don’t use voting as a way of saying you don’t have to organize and strike. It won’t on its own produce meaningful change.
Ok sure I agree with all that. So what is it that’s so bad about western democracies again? The combination of democracy and the ability to strike, organize and protest are why western democracies have more civil liberties than anywhere else in the world. Working conditions in, for example, China are markedly worse and the right to protest is nonexistent.
you’re dodging the study that was posted. the one that clearly indicates that isn’t happening in western “democracy”
the only reason they ever let you is because they’re in power, but it’ll be quite difficult to explain away making antifa a terrorist organization, for example.
You’d need to compare and contrast which specific rights and civil liberties you’re talking about to say which one has more or less, I could point to at will employment and say the US is obviously worse, there’s also the fact that the US breaks unions and strikes all the time too.
china has freedom of speech written into its constitution too, it ultimately doesn’t matter if these rights are ignored, as they are in both places.
Im not dodging anything, I accept the results of the study, but i dont think its useful for comparison to a non-democracy.
Im not sure what you mean by at-will employment, as it relates to civil liberties?
There are certainly some aspects of Chinese society that are freer than in America, but i think its a false equivalency to say “both sides bad”. Look at any rankings and you’ll see that.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores
You might say, well those rankings are biased, but if you look at what i would say are the core civil liberties:
-freedom of speech/expression
-freedom of religion
-protection from discrimination
-right to representationThere really isn’t any comparison. And that doesnt even get into the right to bear arms/the right to form a well-regulated militia. You think the US government is too hard on antifa? Try that shit in China haha
You’re doing good work out here comrade. Just wanted to say I appreciate your methods of getting folks to think critically 🫡
Honestly, South Korea isn’t really that democratic, because no matter who wins, they tend to be controlled by the Chaebols.
Taiwan is a true democracy and probably one of the most, if not the most progressive country in Asia.
There are valid arguments to be made regarding the independence of states under the US military umbrella, but South Korea and Taiwain are pretty far down that list of what you could fairly call a true vassal state. I’d look to the Middle East for true examples of vassal states, states that exist largely due to cooperating with the US, who would otherwise simple be replaced by the CIA, with no popular or ideological base of support, weak sense of national identity, and a large (majority?) population of guest workers.
Saudi Arabia is an example. All those weapons they bought was mostly a bribe to the United States. Saudi Arabia doesn’t WANT to have a strong domestic military because they know they are unpopular and, looking to Egypt, recognize they would probably be toppled by an effective and unified military.
On the other hand, you have al Ansar, starved and penniless, beating Saudi forces becauses they actually believe in what they are fighting for, whereas nobody is willing to die for the corrupt House of Saud and no piece of expensive technology is going to change that fact.
South Korea and Taiwain are both legitimate governments with strong public support and national identity, BUT South Korea did do dumb shit like send troops to support American idiocy in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. But notably, South Korea, having had its military defenses stripped and sent to Israel, recently told Trump to fuck off with his troop requests; with the economic collapse of the US imminent and its military exposed as easily compromised, the era of the American vassal state is quickly coming to the end.
[Edit: On my path to correcting the following opinion: The argument for Ukraine, which I’ve heard from what are perhaps pro-Russian sources, is that it is basically a weapons platform for the West to attack Russia forever. Ukraine is basically devastasted as a nation, it’s industrial base destroyed, it’s people fleeing, it’s crops unplanted and unharvested, yet it continues to fight. Why? Because it’s not a country, it’s a weapons platform for the West. But that isn’t one I’m going to defend because I don’t know enough about the situation, but it is plausible (as the best propaganda is).]
As for Israel, a much stronger case can be made that the US is a vassal state of Israel. This business in the Gulf was explicitly, per Little Marco, at the request of Israel, and only benefits Israel at great expense to the US. The US is a wagged dog.
Hi, Ukrainian here. If we actually had the “weapon platform” these chucklefucks at .ml are imagining, Moscow would already be a neat round smoking crater. That is, if you need any further proof that it’s bullshit.
Tankies like to overlook the fact Russia treats Eastern Europe and Central Asia the way US treats Latin America.
“Independent economies? Not on my watch!”
Oh, they’re aware of it. They’re just cool with that.
Ukraine is basically devastasted as a nation, it’s industrial base destroyed, it’s people fleeing, it’s crops unplanted and unharvested, yet it continues to fight. Why?
Because it’s their country, if they can’t protect their country and fold in just a minor pressure, they can’t protect anything. They just had their independent fairly recently of course they gonna fight to their last breath to not rejoin the imperialist that they just escaped. What in Sheogorath is this argument, the mad god have more point than a russian tool.
Edit: you know why i know every tankie is a smooth brain? Apply the same argument to Hamas and Palestine and you will get a different argument from them.
Can you please not uncritically spread Russian propaganda in this comm? It’s the kind of narratives that are normally ridiculed here.
Uncritically? I tagged it as likely pro-Russian propaganda and I doubt anyone would find it convincing after reading the replies.
Edit: Actually presenting an opinion and having users 99% dogpile it is a pretty good strategy for discrediting a position. Everyone reading reaffirms their group identity and dismisses the opinion as literal crazy talk. I think that’s how r/worldnews worked. They would allow one or two people to state an opinion without being banned, but only so it could be brutalized by their flying monkeys.
That’s an overall ML strategy. Dissenting opinion that gets dog piled is removed because it’s violates a rule, them all that’s left is the arguments against the original opinion. Only replies that lack context about the original argument are left by the non-tanky poster so you can continue to take them apart straw man style.
What you experienced was just pushback and conversation about 1 of your talking points. With a bunch of lucid discussion about why that opinion (which you noted as Russian centered propaganda) is wrong.
It also misunderstands the fundamental issue of Russia. The propaganda is that Russia is capable when they use hard power at all. They aren’t. Russia Pound 4 pound has the worst track record of all militaries in the world, and that’s being on the winning side half the time.
Russia is great at soft power, but absolutely utter shit at hard power. Ukraine has gotten a 100th of the support Israel is getting, because Israel is the weapon testing platform of the West. Israel is where we’re testing how to kill with new technology.
Ukraine has built their weapon systems almost entirely in house and is now actually selling both it’s tech and tactics to other nations, much like Iran has done in the east as well.
Russia is just really, really, really bad at war.
Well, before I was banned from r/worldnews, I was a frequent punching bag, with my comments left untouched, so that’s what was going on there.
I’m saying I don’t feel bad for softballing Russian propaganda here, because it’s effectively just pointing out how unpopular and stupid it is when it’s attacked like it’s been here. I’m not defending it, I’m just putting it out there with the implicit question being, “Is this bullshit? because it kinda sounds like bullshit.”
Kinda funny you bring up Russia’s military, because just yesterday there was a Russian talking about how awesome the Russian military was, but, reading between the lines, he was mostly saying Russians don’t mind killing their soldiers while Americans have, since Vietnam, built their entire strategy around tactics that don’t risk soldiers…
So it’s a fair criticism. I think the American Empire is only sustainable by violence that does not cost American lives (be it sanctions or bombing campaigns)… but whether Russia has a “great” military is another question entirely.
But that leads me to a question that has really been perplexing me, because on the one hand, maybe Russia will be looking to Poland next, but on the other hand, could it really fight the EU if it’s only winning Ukraine via years and years of attrition? The Russian channels so that no, Russia has no such intentions, but also say Russia has a great military and all the other militaries suck, while European sources say Russia is a mortal threat to Europe and that Russia is extremely capable militarily, but the facts on the ground seem to indicate that Russia is a huge country with population, industry, and oil wealth, just grinding their way to victory.
The larger question is where do I get news with a leftist worldview that isn’t explicitly biased? I don’t think it’s possible. And I think the real risk for people who fall off the American Capitalism Is The Best bandwagon is that they’ll be suckers for pro-Eastern propaganda if that’s the only place pushing anti-US narratives, and maybe that’s how we get tankies.
I’d love to read an essay comparing Ukraine and Israel in terms of diplomatic and military support. My opinion is that the US’s military is focused on developing expensive hardware as congressional pork and jobs programs; and I think Europe probably has adopted the same model. Whatever happens if Russia attacks Poland, I think Europe is going to be on a steep learning curve.
News in this time is rough. There is no true left wing news in America, news is fully captured. The only source of unvarnished left wing news is Zines in the House US, and they are extremely idealogical, because they have to be to operate in a news embargo. All information is accepted, all opinions are taken with a grain of salt, existing right now sucks.
We haven’t actually had a modern war yet. When you look at Russia v Ukraine, or US vs Iran, you see what the new war looks like.
Israel as a weapon testing platform does not involve actual conflict. There’s a small about of fighting from Hamas, but realistically on Israel they can just kill whoever they want however they want.
The US exist as a power in precision bombing, we are fucking allergic to soldiers dying as you noted. You saw what happened when a power can just take precision bombing, just soak it up like Iran. Russia exists as a power in sending waves after waves of people that they are willing to lose, they win through attrition. You’re seeing what happens when their opponent stops spending lives and starts killing you autonomously.
Europe is not one place, despite the fact that they have an EU, individually they are not terribly good at working together. You saw how bad Brexit fucked regional trade. In my opinion the entire EU is worried that Nato is bullshit and no wants Russia to try and prove it.
Right now the only untested super power is China. China can produce munitions at a rate that the entire world’s production combined can’t touch. China has an nearly unlimited number of people and have embraced drone tech. Mark my fucking words, the world is a series of paper tigers next to China. The big powers are rushing to prove it.
The Guardian is where I get most of my US news from, and they’re UK based, which just shows you the level of capture here. But for foreign policy news, anywhere in the world is willing to criticize the US.
As far as war goes, it looks like we can pound the shit out of each other with missile and drones, but this is just an extension of air supremacy doctrine, which, as you’ve pointed out, can continue indefinitely without victory.
Given the psychology of the US and Israel, I think one of us will be dropping nukes soon, and then it’s time to wait for the octopus archeologists to put the pieces together in a few millenia.
What’s your take on Russia’s threat to the EU and the EU’s capacity to address it?
And here’s the thing I notice about China which I’ll bring up in the context of someone probably watching a lot of Chinese-friendly media. They do seem to have a fundamentally different, and I’ll say morally better, approach to foreign policy than the US. You can make the road initiviative in Africa seem as sinister as you want, it’s still better than destabilizing governments by arming pedophile warlords that sow chaos.
China COULD play the proxy war game to destabilize its enemies, but, as far as I can tell, it does not, and that’s why I think China is probably going to be the only lead player people are willing to work with…
And that for as long as it takes them to fall to the power madness that all empires fall into.
There is no escaping the wheel.
I think Russia poses a threat to anyone no matter how deep a hole they are currently in, they are a nuclear power, and even though the most likely people on the planet to use a nuke are the US in Iran or Israel in Iran, the threat of a nuclear powered nation engaging in offensive war is terrifying.
No matter how well the EU would be able to defend, and I have very very little opinion there, my info is extremely low with EU matters, Russia testing Nato directly would show that the agreement effectively doesn’t exist. I think it’s just as likely that Nato/EU does as much about Russian aggression as they did with Ukraine, no matter where it happens.
I could be totally wrong there, I’m willing to be totally wrong there.
I think drones as a fundamental technology of war have changed the game in a way you wouldn’t call air supremacy. Air supremacy used to rely on incredibly expensive pieces of flight equipment, even the drones. Now the tech involves things that cost pennies in comparison (basically consumer drone tech with military grade explosives tapes to them) that can take out a piece of equipment which is nearly irreplaceable. War has changed right under the nose of the US and Russia. At least Russia is trying to catch up, the US is rejecting this tech and trying to put more pieces of 7-8 figure equipment in the air.
But that isn’t one I’m going to defend because I don’t know enough about the situation, but it is plausible (as the best propaganda is).
Please, name any attack on Russian soil performed by Nato, before Russia invaded Ukraine. I beg you. You can’t? Oh.
Yes Ukraine the “weapons platform” that has to beg to be supplied ammunition. I will say that Western countries have used the Ukraine war as a testing field for modern weapon systems. However, I will laugh in your face if you tell me with any hint of seriousness you believe it’s a US pawn. Ukraine is a European wildcard that rembers and resents the Russian Empire and is only allied with Nato for ammo and logistical support. It’s not a secret that Nato is not friendly to Russia and wants to balkanize it, however Nato would never have had the balls to ever attack or threaten Russia. The reason Nato wants to balkanize Russia is that it keeps attacking neighbors and engaging in covert actions against western countries. If Russia had actually worked towards developing itself and it’s European connections in the 1990s and 2000s it would be in a far better place. Rember that the USSR didn’t collapse its states willingly dissolved it as soon as they had a chance to slip the collar of Moscow.
Russia rich in resources but destitute for leadership.
If you want I can steer you towards a very nice video essay series that goes over some of this with its sources cited that can help you branch off further
I will say that Western countries have used the Ukraine war as a testing field for modern weapon systems.
Most new weapons systems they use are developed in Ukraine not in West. West supplies traditional weapons all the new drone shit is domestic mostly.
The problem, from my perspective, is my “truth detector” is basically, “how much do they shit on the United States?” The more shitting there is, is the truthier the commenter. Throw in a few references like “hegemon” and “Epstein Class” and I’m a happy kitten.
I think what’s most important to me is to counter-program years of US indoctrination, and seeing the US as a malign actor on the world stage is really the main ticket of entry.
That said, I have not completely taken leave of my senses and, yeah, the defenses of invading Ukraine never sat right with me. because territorial sovereigty is a core value of mine, and Russia has quite the habit of doing so and the defenses seem pretty far fetched.
I guess the sad reality is that in this space that everyone is selling something.
So, yes, if you’d like to put me onto a good YouTube series on Ukraine, I’ll have a listen.
I think your lie detector is broken mate. I could arbitrarily pick a country to shit on and fill pages. It doesn’t make my rants accurate. Your truth detector should be based on verifiable facts and information… Anyways, open my profile and look at my most recent post.
There’s truth detector and there’s worldview that explains what is happening and can predict what will happen and can predict would happen if something novel occurred.
A collection of facts is really only interesting in if it supports or detracts from world view and what I’m looking for is an outlet that synthesizes facts and contextualizes it within a worldview, while at the same time, you know, prioritizing the truth value of claims over their ability to support their worldview/narrative.
I mean yeah. The worst part about being willing to listen and change you mind, is that people want you on their side. Even if you opinion is 80%, 95% of another person’s, if you are not on the same page idealogically, you are wrong.
That’s kinda how humans work though, not even in a sinister way. There is plenty of sinister people who know and try to exploit that shit. But people love team sports because we naturally love to form into teams. People will unknowingly create teams out of anything and then create methods to identify if you are in our out.
When you have an open mind enough to actually listen to these arguments and try to form an opinion, or approach a topic trying to have your mind changed, people on a team will treat you like you’re fucking stupid.
You seem like you are engaging in good faith which is the highest complement you can give a person on a text forum.
Kind of the fun of talking with people is finding out where you’re wrong. I’ll often say something I suspect is wrong in the hopes that someone will show me the light…
It got harder to do that on reddit, where if one toe was out of line, you were treated as a bad actor. And, partially, I get it. In large groups, there are more trolls and people’s patience is thinner. On the other hand, mob mentality is real…
To be fair saying something you think is wrong just in the hopes of being proven wrong is the text book definition of a bad actor.
Yeah, it would be, so I don’t say things I think are wrong, I say things that I SUSPECT are wrong. That is to say, I think they also might be right.
So one of your premises for making the fediverse better is to remove the parts you don’t like / don’t agree with?
Can you not just scroll past?
Some would suggest that silencing / censoring your opposition is quite a tankie thing to do…
Edit: Judging by the repliers I’ve chatted to some people really seem to care a lot about this. I gotta admire your passion… whilst still having a different opinion.
Let’s make an instance for Nazis, then, while we’re at it. Otherwise we aren’t tolerant enough /s
There are quite a few already. They just blocked everyone including each other and are now single instance dictatorships rather than a federation of instances.
Isn’t that just sh.itjust.works?
By Nazi I’m assuming you mean fascist and then I saw the word “tolerant” and almost couldn’t reply.
My level of Nazi tolerance varies greatly; I’ll tell you why: words should be countered by words, direct action should be countered by direct action.
Does driving things underground have a history of eradicating said thing?
I would prefer to confront / convert a fascist before they make a move then to have to kill one after they made their move.
You however might be more blase about ending human lives than me, granted.
Words to be countered with words only when a person speaks in a good faith and is ready to listen. Thats almost never the case in the internet, unless you are in some low pop group chat where people value your personal opinion. Thats not a lemmy format, we are too numerous. I’m basically nobody to you, why my opinion even matters?
.ml is not speaking in a good faith, in fact they ban opposing opinions. Its red fash propaganda platform. Block is the way.
Nobody is “nobody” to me.
Sorry, but that’s just how I roll, baby.
Well, the tankie instances very loudly advocate in defense of a terrorist state that is in fact attempting to end my life and life of every person in my country. Is that direct enough for you or am I not passing your purity test?
All valid… but surely you understand that some people just randomly go with the first instance they find?
I’m all for people personally curating feeds.
Not sure about purity tests, or really what that means here - I’m just giving an opinion. I’d be horrified if everybody else agreed with me…
If you walk into a nazi bar unknowingly thats fine. You can even go back a few times and most wouldn’t think twice about it. But if someone asks you why your frequenting the nazi bar and their response is anything other then “I didn’t know its a nazi bar.” Followed promptly by them leaving that bar then they are infact also a nazi.
It can take a while before someone starts to notice a pattern in a group as large as a lemmy instance. Took me almost a month before i started to notice the pattern of every bad faith actor and asshole seemed to be coming from .ml over and over again.
.ml is just a “nazi bar” of lemmy. Just not literal nazis.
some people just randomly go with the first instance they find
Hence this community, to give people more information on tankie instances.
Honestly, if I was on .ml and had already subscribed to the comms I wanted I’m not sure I’d bother to migrate… and slowly things would get quieter and quieter until I quit and told everybody I know, who’s tech literate, that the fediverse is dying.
god it’s a shame that there isn’t a community that could help someone in that situation. maybe somewhere tankie bullshit could be called out and put on blast.
oh wait!
I don’t know, if I was on .ml and saw links to posts where the instance’s admins and mods are saying that killing people like me is a good idea, I would “bother to migrate”. And then I would tell everybody I know, who cares to listen, that the fediverse isn’t limited to a handful of fascist in red coats.
ml has a sign up form last I checked. It isn’t just a click the first thing you see situation.
When I first encountered .ml’s instance I actually wondered why the Republic of Mali had such a strong presence in the fediverse.
I’m a bellend - that was for someone else.
I started on .world cause it was the first in the list of instances on the app i downloaded. I only moved cause they started blocking vpns and doing other stupid shit.
Took me a good soild month before i even noticed .ml was the unifying factor between all the idiots i kept seeing.
Yes driving “opinions” underground has a great track record of lessening their impact, especially when they aren’t true.
Look the world is complex, hitler didn’t kill a single person himself but his words certainly lead to death.
A lie travels way faster than the truth, we know for a fact that the more acceptable hate speech becomes the more likely real life violence will become.
So words lead to concentration camps in the US and now where is the action against the action that you speak of?
Lefties always make tge stake of believing rightwingers are completely sincere when they speak when in fact they don’t really care about the truth and entertaining them often serves only one purpose, getting their message out there.
I
“Silencing / censoring” by asking that people merely block the propaganda instance via their personal block lists?
Yeah, that’s fine - but this just seems a bit like brigading.
If a person makes their own mind up, one way or another, good for them.
Brigading is weirdly natural when its against something stupid, harmful or problematic. Its only problematic when its being driven by bad faith or lies. Which is why its frequently against many groups rules. Because its hard to say when the person making the call to action is acting in good or bad faith.
But if it happens entirely naturally with out a centralized call to action its rarely problematic. Humans are generally really good at protecting themselves from problems. They are just shit at sorting truth from lie in group settings.
So its a hard balancing act.
The post is evidence to help them make their mind up. It’s not like the OP can block anyone for that person.
Yeah, whilst trying to paint an entire instance broadly with a single brush…
I pop over to .ml for a few communities most days - never discussed anything political whilst there and had a jolly time.
My fediverse experience would be lessened via a blanket defederation / instance blocking.
To use an extreme, i can go into a nazi bar and have a great time, drink some beers and play pool. As long as i don’t bring up their problematic politics or world views.
People even the worse of people can be fantastic to hang out with. Doesn’t make them good people.
It’s why you should never judge someone from first appearances. We are all human, and humans by default get along really well. Its the opinions, politics and other factors beyond the first appearances that cause problems.
So by your logic as long as we just ignore they racism, hate, and problematic politics and instance policies then the instance has no issues.
You will get no one to like .ml here. Don’t waste your effort.
no don’t you get it? their memes are cool! we can just ignore everything else and talk about memes!
the fediverse will die if we don’t share memes with the tankies!!!
Don’t want them to like it, just acknowledge the possibility that it is a collection of individual humans that vary greatly in view rather than a single entity. Being on .ml shouldn’t automatically preclude you from being part of a bigger thing.
Apparently nuance is dead and everything is black and white, the gray scale has disappeared?
You are always free to walk out of the nazi bar if you don’t like being called a nazi. Nothing is stopping you from joining a different instance. Theres hundreds of them after all.
Go join a LGBTQ furry instance and no ones going to think your a tankie at first glance.
When their admins routinely push propaganda, ban users and delete content just based on their political disagreements and contrary to their own written rules (as thoroughly documented in this very community), it’s much closer to the kind of thing you led with in your comment here. It wouldn’t be excessive to want to stay away from the whole instance based on that.
Yeah, I get all that. But it’s opinion… I prefer to hear what everybody has to say, evaluate the source and then process what is said - and possibly why.
I get other people are different and just want to mute etc, nay bother.
I just don’t like people actively calling for a boycott. If you’re a functioning adult, pop over, have a look, maybe keep your mouth shut until you get the feel of the instance - and then make a decision…
it just seems a bit pitch forks and lanterns against the Bwci under the bridge.
(Plus it seems a bit weird to try and drive a wedge and foster resentment against where the devs of Lemmy be.)
The devs of lemmy are a bunch of racist twats… If your sucking up to the devs just because they are the devs then your just excusing hate speak because of hero worship.
Which in and of it self is extremely problematic. You may want to step back and think twice on why you hold that opinion.
If we can boycott Israel and totalitarian regimes and amoral corporations, we can boycott lemmy.ml
This is the fediverse where you can disassociate yourself from toxic assholes. It’s not like someone is being offed or put in prison for their opinions irl. Plus they have their own spaces. It is more like excluding authoritarians from an org or a party and telling them to associate themselves with like minded individuals.
No one has to be forced to tolerate toxicity.
So one of your premises for making the fediverse better is to remove the parts you don’t like / don’t agree with?
Literally this, yes.
They’re harmless imo
John Palantirinvited you to joinPalantir16 members already in workspace.
ACCEPT INVITATION
Free and no setup required. This invitation expires in 30 days.Invited by john@palantir.com. View the workspace at any time by clicking this URL palantir-dso5020.slack.com.
What is Slack?
Slack is a messaging app for teams, a place you can collaborate on projects and organize conversations — so you can work together, no matter where you are.
That’s the same mentality that led to the rise of the Tea Party then from there MAGA. Oh, they’re harmless, what will you even do if they win? /s
Well he aint lying here
If that is your opinion, maybe you should find another comm. We support nations that are attacked or threatened by foreign aggressors here. Only exception is that probably most people are more on the Palestine than Israel side here.
Maybe you should mind your own business, and start with your Zionist country fully supporting murdering kids instead of lecturing people about morals (that most probably you dont have anyway)
“West bad therefore China and Russia good” is exactly the kind of bullshit logic that MAGA peddle. Multiple governments can be evil at the same time and you’re allowed to hate all of them.
Cool, now try to find what you accused me of in my comments.
Why would I have to try if it’s there in plain text?
Okay, I am gonna warn you right here to stop being belligerent. This is not a place to start fights with people.
