sent from a disposable whonix qube
How tf do you people use the web with JavaScript disabled? Almost all websites stop working
Those are websites I don’t want to use. As I’ve said in other comments, sites which break without javascript are what I consider broken sites. And I don’t like to use broken sites.
Almost all websites stop working
Another way of saying this: Most websites are broken and not worth accessing.
Like, have you seen the web? Most sites suck. lol. The good ones don’t bully/coerce me to change my behaviour.
I don’t know man. This seems extreme. JavaScript is part of web standard, nearly all sites use it, including every single of my own site/project. I don’t even consider people who have it disabled as I treat them same as bots.
Imagine saying “Windows is less secure than Linux, so I’m not going to make any of my apps work on windows”. You’d get so many weird stares. It’s like instead of dealing with it, learning how to be safer, etc, you’re shutting out.
EDIT grammar
I don’t know man.
Please don’t say that to me.
nearly all sites use it
Yep, and the ones that don’t work without it are what I call broken, and those are not sites that I care to use.
I don’t even consider people who have it disabled as I treat them same as bots.
To quote you: “This seems extreme.”
But it’s your decision, just like it’s my decision to not bother with sites like that. I’m not sure if you’re trying to convince me to comply, but that is exactly what makes me avoid a site. I don’t put up with that sort of thing anymore. It’s not worth my time.
Imagine saying “Windows is less secure than Linux, so I’m not going to make any of my apps work on windows”.
Are you unaware of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) and that there are plenty of developers who don’t bother making things for closed systems like Windows? It’s not weird at all.
It’s like instead of dealing with it, learning how to be safer, etc, you’re shutting out.
How am I not “dealing with it” ? I don’t value sites which mistreat me, and so I avoid them. I am happier as a result. I have more comfort and self-respect, and I lose nothing.
From another of my comments:
Without javascripts, I get neat and tidy static pages that load super fast. I can have dozens of them loaded in separate tabs on my Librem 5 or Pinephone, which only have 3GB of RAM. It’s nice and comfy.
With javascripts, I get a bad experience involving
- ads
- trackers
- cookie notices
- popups & overlays
- obnoxious “chat” features
- long wait times for everything to load
- new elements pushing other elements around as they load
- pages which automatically reload/refresh without my consent
- useless effects like blur which slow down the pages significantly
- “infinite scroll” pages which fuck up my calm navigation of the page
- poorly-designed pages which aren’t easy to fix with things like web dev tools or ublock origin
- captchas
- etc. etc. etc.
I’m not seeking to convince web devs like you to design your sites to my liking, but you shouldn’t expect people like me to want to use your sites if they’re broken.
It’s rarely ever worth it to comply with the demand to allow scripts, and I resent that it is so often a demand rather than a suggestion.
Just to be clear, the JavaScript in my sites is used to improve load times and functionality, not for tracking or other stuff. It has been a standard for quite some time to not load entire pages again if a user clicks on something or scrolls below visible area, but rather only what’s changing. I can guarantee you the alternative is slower as it has been tested and proven for years and years. I wanted to ask you how are you even using YouTube, but I guess they made non-JS version because they also heavily rely on dynamic content. That means your YouTube page doesn’t just load what you see, it also loads comments and other bloat that you might never need, resulting in larger html itself.
It has been a standard for quite some time to not load entire pages again if a user clicks on something or scrolls below visible area
Yes, and I hate that. The alternative gives me a complete page which is accessible with or without an active internet connection. The standard you like is a worse experience for me. Loading complete pages without javascripts is aways a faster and better experience than sites which hide content behind a javascript ‘paywall’. I think I’ll start calling it that from now on, because that’s what it is to me, a javascript paywall.
I wanted to ask you how are you even using YouTube
I don’t use GAFAM serivices. If I want to access content which is controlled by youtube (rare), then I use an invidious instance. If I want comments to load, I load the page with the tag specifying non-javascript mode.
Im not super tech saavy, especially compared to the lemmy userbase, but every complaint about software just reads to me like whining about something you chose to install on your computer. You can just not use someone else’s software, yes the mainstream software companies are fucking assholes and they will take all of your data and privacy in exchange for a subscription to their software. It’s on you if you accept that deal.
While technically correct, it’s a slightly shallow analysis. It’s like people complaining that companies put chemicals in the food, you could grow all of your your own food but it’s probably not feasible.
And yet ultimately the answer is to refuse to buy from those companies.
We’re both here on Lemmy so it’s safe to assume we’re both doing our best, but I’m willing to bet all my money that you are not sourcing all of your tech needs from ethical companies or the open source community. You probably use an Apple or Google made phone, your work might lock you into Microsoft operating systems, the list goes on. It’s not wrong for people to demand better solutions from companies that have managed to establish a monopoly and who use their vast resources to maintain that monopoly.
Idk what we mean by wrong but it’s just dumb and causes self inflicted stress. Yes i use microsoft at work because they tell me i have to, i dont complain about it on the internet because that would just be wasting my energy for naught. And no monopoly has ever self policed itself and never will. The problem is the laws passed so go complain to your local politicians instead. And if microsoft was the first company to ever self police itself out of a monopoly, google and apple would instantly suck up all that market share.
Those last two panels are so far past the inconvenience I’d ever be willing to put up with. I’m not sure how it could ever be worth it.
Bottom left is a super-convenient built-in feature of Qubes OS, via qubes-whonix. I just click a button and a new disposable whonix qube is generated from the template, and it only takes seconds to boot. When I’m done with it, I close the window, and the disposable qube is automatically deleted.
Bottom right is my default, since I don’t like broken sites.
Okay I just did some cursory research and it doesn’t sound simple. Is it just installing qubes-whonix and creating a template (I’m guessing a yaml config or similar)?
As far as sites with JavaScript being “broken”, that one puzzles me. I have tried turning off JavaScript in the past and probably 70% of websites became fully non functional. That shouldn’t be the case, but it often is, and my impression has been that this has gotten worse, not better. I’m a web developer and no one talks about progressive enhancement anymore and frankly my coworkers have mostly thought it’s silly to even try to support users who turn off JavaScript.
Okay I just did some cursory research and it doesn’t sound simple. Is it just installing qubes-whonix and creating a template (I’m guessing a yaml config or similar)?
During the installation of Qubes OS, you can select a checkbox to have Whonix templates and qubes automatically installed. After installation, you can simply click a launcher to start an app like Tor browser in a new disposable whonix qube from the disposable whonix template. It really is that simple. Installing Qubes OS does take a while though.
As far as sites with JavaScript being “broken”, that one puzzles me. I have tried turning off JavaScript in the past and probably 70% of websites became fully non functional.
Yes, those sites which become non-functional without javascripts are very much broken.
That shouldn’t be the case, but it often is, and my impression has been that this has gotten worse, not better.
Yes, much of the web is broken. On a related note, much of the web is infested with malicious ads and trackers.
I’m a web developer and no one talks about progressive enhancement anymore and frankly my coworkers have mostly thought it’s silly to even try to support users who turn off JavaScript.
That’s a shame. And yeah, those are basically just dead sites. If they’re non-functional then there’s really no point for them to exist.
As the web continues to devolve, with a growing graveyard of dead sites (and an increasing prevalence of malicious scripts), I hope that more people wake up to the reality that this is bad. It’s similar to the dead-end that is google’s android. Eventually they’ll pull it away and leave a lot of people scrambling for their next option. I think the modern web will go through a similar transformation one day. I hope so.
I will give qubes-whonix a shot, you have convinced me!
There are certain functionalities that cannot be done without JavaScript. In my perfect world either no one would abuse JavaScript with ads and other shitty design choices, or at least I’d have an easier time with toggling it off/on. For now I’m leaving JavaScript on because it’s simply far too inconvenient otherwise. Browsers are pretty good about preventing actual harm if you have UBO installed though.
Out of curiosity, what harm are you concerned about JavaScript doing with an ad blocker and while loading sites within a container? That seems extreme to me.
I will give qubes-whonix a shot, you have convinced me!
You definitely shouldn’t rush into Qubes OS. If you’re seriously interested, I’d recommend checking out videos and reading about it so you can understand it a little deeper.
Out of curiosity, what harm are you concerned about JavaScript doing with an ad blocker and while loading sites within a container? That seems extreme to me.
Besides that fact that javascripts can be used to track and profile users, they also make the user experience of sites worse. I love static pages. Sites that require javascripts are the polar opposite of that. Useless blur effects and other “features” can cause pages to be significantly slower than static pages, and I absolutely hate it. I should be able to scroll smoothly and click buttons once the page has loaded, and I should be able to keep pages cached indefinitely. With javascripts, scrolling can often be laggy, buttons can appear and disappear in odd ways, and pages can be automatically reloaded without my consent, causing lots of frustrations. I cannot understand how anyone prefers browsing the web with javascripts. They are a fucking cancer, like 99% of the time.
I hear you on qubes.
RE: js, you’re talking about the web as if it should only ever be what it was first conceived of: documents. In reality now it’s used for full on software applications. It’s not just used for animations and polish (and the shitty things you mention specifically), it’s also used for dynamically updating the UI. A world you speak of would mean much worse order forms, paperwork for doctors, etc. I mean you do you, but you can’t just not acknowledge that dynamic updates of a UI are better than filling out a long form then getting back “invalid data, you selected this and entered that, start over”. It’s literally useful.
The tracking concerns are mostly mitigated by vpns, ad blockers, and private browser features. I understand there are many flaws and issues I’m glossing over, but for the most part, the average person can just use those things, then opt to close the tab of a horrible website like you’re describing.
tldr; you may prefer static documents, but modern society is built on forms and other types of vital apps, which would inevitably be worse without javascript.
In reality now it’s used for full on software applications.
I think software applications are better made as actual applications instead of browser-based web-apps.
it’s also used for dynamically updating the UI.
It might seem useful on the surface but is prone to the same sorts of breakage and annoyances I was talking about.
A world you speak of would mean much worse order forms, paperwork for doctors, etc. I mean you do you, but you can’t just not acknowledge that dynamic updates of a UI are better than filling out a long form then getting back “invalid data, you selected this and entered that, start over”.
That’s an interesting example, because that’s happened to both of my parents within the past few months from two different healthcare-related sites. The javascript elements frustrated them more than me, since they didn’t understand why certain things weren’t working, and I had to figure it out for them. And there were a few times when we had to start over due to the sites being poorly made.
That’s really what I see in this reliance on javascripts, corner-cutting which causes problems. Properly-configured sites work better, and the ones reliant on javascript tend not to be.
I would prefer static order forms so that I can have the entire form and fill it out before submitting, while retaining a copy so that if there were issues I could more quickly and efficiently resubmit with the corrections.
Some people might prefer the dynamically updating UI stuff, but except for live chats I can’t see a good use for it that static pages can’t do better. And I think live chats are better in non-web apps which support end-to-end encryption anyway.
The tracking concerns are mostly mitigated by vpns, ad blockers, and private browser features.
The most useful and efficient private browsing feature is the ability to disable javascripts. Using vpns and ad-blockers protects against very specific vectors of surveillance, while javascripts allow a diverse set of surveillance capabilities, so blocking them protects against several forms of surveillance. And with more people disabling javascripts, we all blend together better.
you may prefer static documents, but modern society is built on forms and other types of vital apps, which would inevitably be worse without javascript.
Modern society is also built on ignorance, conformity, and exploitation, all of which make javascript-based sites more dangerous and prone to issues. It’s the easy answer thrown at every problem, like “a.i.” and is similarly dangerous.
Hey, so there are a few threads I can’t see from this instance due to defederations and I wanna respond anyway.
@Digit@lemmy.today open dyslexia font? nice touch.
Thanks. Yeah, it’s OpenDyslexicAlta Bold. It felt like a good option for a meme font that was kinda different and maybe easy enough to read to make it useful too.
@Onomatopoeia@lemmy.cafe That makes it easier for dyslexics?
Possibly for some, as @Ludicrous0251@piefed.zip said. I think it would probably be more beneficial for those who are introduced to it at a young age. Otherwise it takes some time to get used to it, and I did end up falling back to the fonts I had been using. But I do like OpenDyslexicAlta font and think it makes a good meme font, so yeah.
Okay so that’s my response to the chain of comments quoted above. Sorry I can’t give y’all upvotes due to the defederation, and sorry it took me so long to realize there were comments which were hidden from me. I do try my best to respond to everything that seems directed at me or which I can offer a worthwhile response.
The next chain of comments is much longer (it’s a really good one too), and I’m thinking I’ll make one or more responses when I get back online a while from now.
🩷
This is so on-brand with the meme, bravo. Also you seem very thoughtful.
I have a brand??! 🫨 (seriously tyvm 🩷) I’m currently going through my notifications and responding to stuff before using another qube to find that other chain of comments (and any new ones too). I am pretty obsessive ^^’ (and maybe trying to show more of myself here in the hopes that people can truly see me when I say things that matter)
