Okay like of course this perspective is vile. I would never defend it. The people I refer to below are not the same people represented in this tweet.
But the right’s justification for anti immigration makes sense to people. Its the oldest trick in the book! Artificial scarcity? Housing crisis? Employment crisis? Some of us have a rigorous class analysis that can neatly disprove these lies, part of why red scares are such a fundamental component of the right’s culture war (a component many progressive liberals accept unquestioningly.)
But for the average person who doesnt think about stuff that way, the working/middle class swing voter who is simultaneously directly affected by economic and political oppression but deeply confused about the underlying causes, how do we convince them? The pendulum has flipped and Trumps policies are deeply unpopular, but what is the convincing explanation that the whole basis of their logic is flawed? How do we prove that immigrants aren’t the problem?
Its like in avengers, thanos says he will kill half of all people in order to end scarcity in the universe. And none of the heroes even questions his logic. The attitude is like, he’s a bad guy but it would still work. And, no it wouldn’t, scarcity in advanced society is driven by class, not population. Malthus was thoroughly disproved like 150 years ago and yet this myth persists (like the myth of immigration and race-based scarcity).
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote” we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism. In 5-10 years it will be full on Nazi shit and I dont want to die in a concentration camp please and thank you
I think you’re trying really fucking hard to pretend that there are people there worth saving and it eats at me that your perspective is not only popular, but common.
These people are irredeemable. Their primary goals are to hurt others for their inalienable traits.
You don’t need these people. When the common opinion was such that they had to hide their shitty opinions, everyone was better off for it.
What you need, is people who don’t pay attention to pay attention. Stop focusing on the magas. You can never find compromise with them, nor convince them with reason, because all of the arguments they give are fundementally based on “I hate that person because they are the out group”.
That trumps literally everything else to them, as you are clearly seeing here. They are not outliers. Thats the common maga mentality.
You doing mental gymnastics to pretend that the common person just has to be good is a coping strategy that is killing you.
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote”
When has that been anyones political strategy. Thats what the right says it is (instead its trying to sell people on a DNC lead democrat party that fundementally does not want to offer noteworthy change).
Firstly, we should shame them, because the right wing is demonstrably awful, and pretending it has merit does no favours. That is what the DNC wants to do, and has done for the past… very long time.
So shame is not the solution, but its also not the problem.
Instead, the problem is that an average person here’s 2 people put up some arguments, doesnt think about it further, thinks “ah well both sides” and then stops thinking.
Left leaning people often don’t help this as they screech more loudly about the party closest to actually being moldable into something positive than they do the party doing harm, which helps keep precisely the group they need to convince the most in that valley of “both people are shouting, both sides I guess” and then that person stops caring.
Also,
we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism.
Creeping threat??? You’re currently trying to fight your way out and you call it a creeping threat. Just part of the problems.
My opinion on the world is that 50% of people don’t really care all that much about anything and have an extremely mild positive bias, 30% of people are just awful, and focus more on hurting others than making things better, and then 20% are the inverse of the 30%.
Your “solution” involves somehow convincing that 30% instead of figuring out whats stopping that 50% from figuring out how this will personally affect them, and to snap out of they’re “both sides” voter apathy/general apathy delusion.
Part of the problem is that their position is self defeating. They think nothing works, everything is corrupt, and so there is no point doing anything, and that entrenches all of those problems, making them even worse.
Thats the real struggle; getting them both to see the personal threat to themselves (as they don’t care about the larger picture) and then getting them to see that they do in fact have none bloody death alternatives to that.
All of this just emphasizes how disastrous it was that the democrats folded and didn’t let people see the consequences of their actions with the government shutdown.
Wow you’re really cheesed. Like I said in my first sentence, I don’t support those views or people with those views. Ive worked with people who are do try to reach over and convince the MAGAs and frankly they’re the worst. I’m not one of them I’m asking a question about the middle, the exact folks you are talking about.
But to someone who genuinely thinks that immigration threatens their jobs, their logic based in the education they received, the news they consume, the ambient culture.
My question is how do you do that? How do you reach the people in the middle who are most affected, fearful, worried, and hence easy to manipulate ideologically?
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
What “solution” did I even offer? I asked a fucking question. This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid? Let me ask you, who are you recruiting to the cause? What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this. Fucking relax.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid?
Fucking relax.
Jumping to trolling with the comment equivalent to “u mad bro?” while pretending to care about civility is wild.
This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
This right here is straight projection, especially given clearly some others thought my comment fit perfectly/was a reasonable interpretation of yours.
What “solution” did I even offer?
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote” we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism. In 5-10 years it will be full on Nazi shit and I dont want to die in a concentration camp please and thank you
You are clearly suggesting that not shaming the fascists is part of the solution here and now you’re feigning ignorance to having said that.
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
and
I asked a fucking question.
Yeah, nah. Now, with the rest of the comment as context this seems more like an effort to sealion than a real question, especially with you saying:
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
Which completely changes who you’re portraying yourself to be and asks me to waste my time with a right wing talking point that is now suddenly the focus, as if the uncaring people think this is a major point anyways.
I probably spent to much effort responding to this comment that is clearly actually in bad faith.
I mean look at this shit:
What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this.
Okay like of course this perspective is vile. I would never defend it. The people I refer to below are not the same people represented in this tweet.
But the right’s justification for anti immigration makes sense to people. Its the oldest trick in the book! Artificial scarcity? Housing crisis? Employment crisis? Some of us have a rigorous class analysis that can neatly disprove these lies, part of why red scares are such a fundamental component of the right’s culture war (a component many progressive liberals accept unquestioningly.)
But for the average person who doesnt think about stuff that way, the working/middle class swing voter who is simultaneously directly affected by economic and political oppression but deeply confused about the underlying causes, how do we convince them? The pendulum has flipped and Trumps policies are deeply unpopular, but what is the convincing explanation that the whole basis of their logic is flawed? How do we prove that immigrants aren’t the problem?
Its like in avengers, thanos says he will kill half of all people in order to end scarcity in the universe. And none of the heroes even questions his logic. The attitude is like, he’s a bad guy but it would still work. And, no it wouldn’t, scarcity in advanced society is driven by class, not population. Malthus was thoroughly disproved like 150 years ago and yet this myth persists (like the myth of immigration and race-based scarcity).
Because as long as our political strategy amounts to “shame anyone who demonstrates an affective affinity with the right, and vote” we won’t be able to resist the creeping threat of fascism. In 5-10 years it will be full on Nazi shit and I dont want to die in a concentration camp please and thank you
I think you’re trying really fucking hard to pretend that there are people there worth saving and it eats at me that your perspective is not only popular, but common.
These people are irredeemable. Their primary goals are to hurt others for their inalienable traits.
You don’t need these people. When the common opinion was such that they had to hide their shitty opinions, everyone was better off for it.
What you need, is people who don’t pay attention to pay attention. Stop focusing on the magas. You can never find compromise with them, nor convince them with reason, because all of the arguments they give are fundementally based on “I hate that person because they are the out group”.
That trumps literally everything else to them, as you are clearly seeing here. They are not outliers. Thats the common maga mentality.
You doing mental gymnastics to pretend that the common person just has to be good is a coping strategy that is killing you.
When has that been anyones political strategy. Thats what the right says it is (instead its trying to sell people on a DNC lead democrat party that fundementally does not want to offer noteworthy change).
Firstly, we should shame them, because the right wing is demonstrably awful, and pretending it has merit does no favours. That is what the DNC wants to do, and has done for the past… very long time.
So shame is not the solution, but its also not the problem.
Instead, the problem is that an average person here’s 2 people put up some arguments, doesnt think about it further, thinks “ah well both sides” and then stops thinking.
Left leaning people often don’t help this as they screech more loudly about the party closest to actually being moldable into something positive than they do the party doing harm, which helps keep precisely the group they need to convince the most in that valley of “both people are shouting, both sides I guess” and then that person stops caring.
Also,
Creeping threat??? You’re currently trying to fight your way out and you call it a creeping threat. Just part of the problems.
My opinion on the world is that 50% of people don’t really care all that much about anything and have an extremely mild positive bias, 30% of people are just awful, and focus more on hurting others than making things better, and then 20% are the inverse of the 30%.
Your “solution” involves somehow convincing that 30% instead of figuring out whats stopping that 50% from figuring out how this will personally affect them, and to snap out of they’re “both sides” voter apathy/general apathy delusion.
Part of the problem is that their position is self defeating. They think nothing works, everything is corrupt, and so there is no point doing anything, and that entrenches all of those problems, making them even worse.
Thats the real struggle; getting them both to see the personal threat to themselves (as they don’t care about the larger picture) and then getting them to see that they do in fact have none bloody death alternatives to that.
All of this just emphasizes how disastrous it was that the democrats folded and didn’t let people see the consequences of their actions with the government shutdown.
Wow you’re really cheesed. Like I said in my first sentence, I don’t support those views or people with those views. Ive worked with people who are do try to reach over and convince the MAGAs and frankly they’re the worst. I’m not one of them I’m asking a question about the middle, the exact folks you are talking about.
But to someone who genuinely thinks that immigration threatens their jobs, their logic based in the education they received, the news they consume, the ambient culture.
My question is how do you do that? How do you reach the people in the middle who are most affected, fearful, worried, and hence easy to manipulate ideologically?
Explain to me, a regular person just trying to get by, how immigration doesnt affect me. Convince me.
What “solution” did I even offer? I asked a fucking question. This is legit the most bad faith response ive ever received.
Is this how you engage in political discourse? You just blow up at whoever you’re talking to? Assume they are evil and stupid? Let me ask you, who are you recruiting to the cause? What real work are you doing to help people and resist fascism? Are you just getting mad at people you made up in your head? Im pretty sure you aren’t doing shit, because people who are doing the work dont act like this. Fucking relax.
Jumping to trolling with the comment equivalent to “u mad bro?” while pretending to care about civility is wild.
This right here is straight projection, especially given clearly some others thought my comment fit perfectly/was a reasonable interpretation of yours.
You are clearly suggesting that not shaming the fascists is part of the solution here and now you’re feigning ignorance to having said that.
and
Yeah, nah. Now, with the rest of the comment as context this seems more like an effort to sealion than a real question, especially with you saying:
Which completely changes who you’re portraying yourself to be and asks me to waste my time with a right wing talking point that is now suddenly the focus, as if the uncaring people think this is a major point anyways.
I probably spent to much effort responding to this comment that is clearly actually in bad faith.
I mean look at this shit:
Pure right wing, 4chan style ragebait trolling.