why are you showing me excerpt’s from PRC’s constitution? Yeah, China claims Taiwan the same way Russia claims Ukraine, I dont care what the aggressor imperialist country thinks, I care what the people within the territory think. And what they wanted was to host a US official in their territory, and then China decided to threaten them. I get the impression folks in your circle have nothing but disdain for the people in Taiwan and dont care what they want.
That UN vote is not about Taiwan being a part of PRC, it’s about who represents ‘China’ in the UN.
That UN vote is not about Taiwan being a part of PRC, it’s about who represents ‘China’ in the UN.
Exactly, and the Taiwan Province is a part of CHINA, which is represented by the government in Beijing (PRC), before UNGAR 2758 it was represented by the government in Taipei (ROC).
“Taiwan” is not a country, regardless of one’s position on this they are either a province of the People’s Republic of China or of the Republic of China.
one country’s constitution doesnt get to decide the sovereignty of other nations. And that’s what you’ve shown me, plus an unrelated vote in the UN. Neither of these preclude Taiwan as a country. And ignoring the part about what the people within the territory of Taiwan want just confirms for me the inhuman view your circle has of people.
It’s not just the PRC’s constitution though, it was decided by UNGAR 2758 that the People’s Republic of China represents “China”, which includes the Taiwan Province inside it’s territory.
really weird strategy coming into a discussion with someone who believes in Taiwan sovereignty, and just expect Taiwan being a part of China as a given I’ll just accept
If this is bad behavior than what do you call the countless military exercises the US does all over the world as a show of force against other sovereign nations?
The reality is that doing a military exercise in your own backyard is required for national security. Look at a map some day. Tell me what’s wrong with China doing exercises off their own coast.
no, it’s off the coast of Taiwan, and there is no international consensus on Taiwan. Most countries have distinct foreign relations with Taiwan separate from China.
also, you know, caring what the people of Taiwan want, if that’s remotely a possibility for you.
There are a large number of things that are factually incorrect with your position.
Taiwan is a small island off the coast of China. By virtue of its size, the coastal waters of mainland China contain the island of Taiwan. By virtue of its distance from the mainland, if the island were not present, off the coast of the mainland includes off the coast of Taiwan. The island of Taiwan is about as far from mainland China as Key West is from Florida. Activities off the coast of Key West are considered activities off the coast of Florida and not of some other state.
The nation of China has included the island of Taiwan from centuries. When two different political groups fought a civil war for control over the nation, the losers fled to the island of Taiwan and declared themselves the government of the nation of China in exile. At no point did either group decide that the mainland and the island were part of different nations or nations unto themselves.
The historical reason many nations have distinct relationships with Taiwan is historically relevant here. The reason is because most nations were anti-communist, refused to acknowledge the communist government of China, and still wanted to exploit China. So, they recognized the KMT as the government of China - not of Taiwan but of China, because the nation of China includes Taiwan. The reason they did this is because they had been dominating China for 100 years and believed the KMT would act as their vassals and believed the CPC would not. So, imperialists who were dominating China protected the losers in the civil war. Had they not intervened, the losers would have been captured. UK and USA creates a dependent puppet government while it conducted a mass murder campaign for decades. All the whole, no one said Taiwan was a separate and new country, not even the KMT on the island of Taiwan.
The UN has a seat on the security council for the nation of China. The KMT was the political body occupying that seat on behf of the nation of China. When the CPC won the war and took over the nation of China, the UN continued to assert that the KMT was the rightful government of China, the nation that includes the island of Taiwan. Eventually, no one could sustain the bullshit anymore and the CPC, the political group in charge of the nation of China, took the seat at the UN.
Thus, the world sees Taiwan as a province of the nation of China and the CPC as the political government of the nation of China. The people of Taiwan, that is to say, the survivors of the 40-year reign of terror where it was a crime punishable by death to even talk about the CPC as the government of China, some of these people now wish to figure out a way to secede. Why do they wish to secede? Because the UK and USA have invested decades and trillions and in creating conditions that make this a reasonable position. Like Hong Kong, the West has established significant finance capital and high tech operations that give an elite upper crust a very high quality of life and the middle class a quality of life like a wealthy European nation. In addition, the West has spent 40 years propagandizing and manipulating the people on the island under the banner of protecting the KMT from the evil commies.
So yes. There is a secessionary movement. It is explicitly motivated by desire to be economically dependent on the West. But it is a secessionary movement to become something other than a province of the nation of China, which means it assumes from the get go that Taiwan is not an independent nation.
Your utter lack of historical understanding is appalling, especially in light of your position that military response by the West is justified.
Taiwan is a sovereign nation with its own coastal waters. Does Singapore not have rights to its coastal waters? Taiwan is about 50 times larger than they are.
Weird how nations becoming independent had a history of not being independent beforehand, this is a non-point at best, pro imperialism at worst.
I dont care how you feel about countries reasons for having foreign relations with Taiwan separate from China
this isnt relevant to Taiwan’s sovereignty who gets to have the seat of ‘China’ at the UN.
I also dont appreciate the notion that the people of Taiwan just have no free will and are all brainwashed. That’s a very lazy approach anyone can take against anyone they think has the wrong opinion. You can pull up any material from western sources supporting Taiwan and call it proof of manipulation. And I can point to China posturing its military against Taiwans will outside its waters for daring to have a US official visit them as intimidation to manipulate their opinions. Taiwan has been exposed to both sides, and this is what they want.
If Taiwan were a sovereign nation, then its coastal waters would be coincidental with China’s, so again, your claim is spurious. But as Taiwan is not sovereign, has never claimed sovereignty, and has never been recognized as an independent sovereignty, the point is moot.
Pro-imperialism is supporting the European-imposed order. Taiwan’s separation from the mainland was a European intervention - literal imperialism. Ending the separation is, by definition, anti-imperialism. Could Taiwan secede from China eventually? Sure. Not now, though, when secession from China guarantees nuclear encirclement by imperialists.
I don’t have feelings about countries’ reasons for Taiwan relationships. I am just reporting history. You can make stupid claims about feelings but it doesn’t change the fact that your argument has no basis in reality.
The relevancy is to disprove your saying that Taiwan isn’t recognized internationally as a part of the nation of China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Chinese_military_exercises_around_Taiwan
Military exercises on their own territory as recognized by the United Nations and almost every single country on Earth? What is the issue here?
The Taiwan Province is an inalienable part of the People’s Republic of China:
And this is recognized by the United Nations ever since 1971 after UNGAR 2758.
Source, page 546: https://web.archive.org/web/20230503050030/https://legal.un.org/unjuridicalyearbook/pdfs/english/volumes/2010.pdf
Video of the votes happening: https://invidious.projectsegfau.lt/watch?v=sfOIEjuXFyU
why are you showing me excerpt’s from PRC’s constitution? Yeah, China claims Taiwan the same way Russia claims Ukraine, I dont care what the aggressor imperialist country thinks, I care what the people within the territory think. And what they wanted was to host a US official in their territory, and then China decided to threaten them. I get the impression folks in your circle have nothing but disdain for the people in Taiwan and dont care what they want.
That UN vote is not about Taiwan being a part of PRC, it’s about who represents ‘China’ in the UN.
Exactly, and the Taiwan Province is a part of CHINA, which is represented by the government in Beijing (PRC), before UNGAR 2758 it was represented by the government in Taipei (ROC).
“Taiwan” is not a country, regardless of one’s position on this they are either a province of the People’s Republic of China or of the Republic of China.
one country’s constitution doesnt get to decide the sovereignty of other nations. And that’s what you’ve shown me, plus an unrelated vote in the UN. Neither of these preclude Taiwan as a country. And ignoring the part about what the people within the territory of Taiwan want just confirms for me the inhuman view your circle has of people.
It’s not just the PRC’s constitution though, it was decided by UNGAR 2758 that the People’s Republic of China represents “China”, which includes the Taiwan Province inside it’s territory.
https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/192054
this part is missing. Taiwan isn’t mentioned in the resolution.
Taiwan does not need to be named any more than any other province does, it is just part of China.
UNGAR 2758 made the PRC the representative of CHINA, in which Taiwan was already a province of.
really weird strategy coming into a discussion with someone who believes in Taiwan sovereignty, and just expect Taiwan being a part of China as a given I’ll just accept
If this is bad behavior than what do you call the countless military exercises the US does all over the world as a show of force against other sovereign nations?
The reality is that doing a military exercise in your own backyard is required for national security. Look at a map some day. Tell me what’s wrong with China doing exercises off their own coast.
No these were off Taiwan’s coast.
Which is a) literally off the coast of China and b) internationally recognized as China’s sovereign territory
no, it’s off the coast of Taiwan, and there is no international consensus on Taiwan. Most countries have distinct foreign relations with Taiwan separate from China.
also, you know, caring what the people of Taiwan want, if that’s remotely a possibility for you.
There are a large number of things that are factually incorrect with your position.
Taiwan is a small island off the coast of China. By virtue of its size, the coastal waters of mainland China contain the island of Taiwan. By virtue of its distance from the mainland, if the island were not present, off the coast of the mainland includes off the coast of Taiwan. The island of Taiwan is about as far from mainland China as Key West is from Florida. Activities off the coast of Key West are considered activities off the coast of Florida and not of some other state.
The nation of China has included the island of Taiwan from centuries. When two different political groups fought a civil war for control over the nation, the losers fled to the island of Taiwan and declared themselves the government of the nation of China in exile. At no point did either group decide that the mainland and the island were part of different nations or nations unto themselves.
The historical reason many nations have distinct relationships with Taiwan is historically relevant here. The reason is because most nations were anti-communist, refused to acknowledge the communist government of China, and still wanted to exploit China. So, they recognized the KMT as the government of China - not of Taiwan but of China, because the nation of China includes Taiwan. The reason they did this is because they had been dominating China for 100 years and believed the KMT would act as their vassals and believed the CPC would not. So, imperialists who were dominating China protected the losers in the civil war. Had they not intervened, the losers would have been captured. UK and USA creates a dependent puppet government while it conducted a mass murder campaign for decades. All the whole, no one said Taiwan was a separate and new country, not even the KMT on the island of Taiwan.
The UN has a seat on the security council for the nation of China. The KMT was the political body occupying that seat on behf of the nation of China. When the CPC won the war and took over the nation of China, the UN continued to assert that the KMT was the rightful government of China, the nation that includes the island of Taiwan. Eventually, no one could sustain the bullshit anymore and the CPC, the political group in charge of the nation of China, took the seat at the UN.
Thus, the world sees Taiwan as a province of the nation of China and the CPC as the political government of the nation of China. The people of Taiwan, that is to say, the survivors of the 40-year reign of terror where it was a crime punishable by death to even talk about the CPC as the government of China, some of these people now wish to figure out a way to secede. Why do they wish to secede? Because the UK and USA have invested decades and trillions and in creating conditions that make this a reasonable position. Like Hong Kong, the West has established significant finance capital and high tech operations that give an elite upper crust a very high quality of life and the middle class a quality of life like a wealthy European nation. In addition, the West has spent 40 years propagandizing and manipulating the people on the island under the banner of protecting the KMT from the evil commies.
So yes. There is a secessionary movement. It is explicitly motivated by desire to be economically dependent on the West. But it is a secessionary movement to become something other than a province of the nation of China, which means it assumes from the get go that Taiwan is not an independent nation.
Your utter lack of historical understanding is appalling, especially in light of your position that military response by the West is justified.
I also dont appreciate the notion that the people of Taiwan just have no free will and are all brainwashed. That’s a very lazy approach anyone can take against anyone they think has the wrong opinion. You can pull up any material from western sources supporting Taiwan and call it proof of manipulation. And I can point to China posturing its military against Taiwans will outside its waters for daring to have a US official visit them as intimidation to manipulate their opinions. Taiwan has been exposed to both sides, and this is what they want.
If Taiwan were China why do mainland Chinese need a passport to go there?
It’s like saying north and south Korea are the same country because, historically, they used to be the same country.
They’re not the same country.