Let’s not cherrypick scenarios to try and pretend Linux is easier than Windows. Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options, never mind putting them into a terminal window where they could seriously fuck up their machine. What about clicking the download link on a webpage, clicking next a few times and having them software on your machine, compared to having to build something from GitHub (how many people here have never had to do that?).
Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options, never mind putting them into a terminal window where they could seriously fuck up their machine
Maybe this is a problem that we should be addressing, rather than just making technology more of a black box, and raising generations of people who have no fucking concept of how any of it works.
Greatest and Silent generations helped create computing, Boomers helped create important software such as DOS, Gen X and Millennials helped develop the Web, Gen Z is still going into computing and development jobs and Gen Alpha is too young to consider
If you have a driver’s license, do you know a car works besides the basic maintenance that is checking your oil and keeping the tires inflated? Some people don’t even do that last one, while it’s a thing you should check regularly.
I think it’s a good thing the general public is able to use a computer without knowing the inner workings, but it also shouldn’t be obscured from them if they want to know/learn.
But this is the classic Linux user mentality; Linux shouldn’t get easier, users should get smarter.
If computers can be easier to use then why should people instead sacrifice loads of time learning how to operate them? Most people have other things to be getting on with.
Unless you have a system without a GUI, you don’t need to open a terminal in order to update or install stuff. There is a GUI for that. And no, you don’t need to build stuff from GitHub for normal user stuff…
I have a lot more fun in my performance car avoiding the top gears, actually. Like after 3rd im already losing my licence on the spot and getting bent over by the law, higher gears are just that but worse.
Ok so what exactly is the big advantage you get when installing updates from a terminal as opposed to installing it via GUI? If I read your analogy, one could think it is faster, but I don’t think it is.
Hotkey open terminal -> sudo apt update/upgrade -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse. Same with all sorts of tasks.
email:
Hotkey open terminal -> neomutt -> quickly sort/delete/reply -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse.
file transfer:
Hotkey open terminal -> scp <info> -> done. Never touched the mouse.
and so on.
If you like using a GUI, use a GUI. I’m not saying you can’t, but you sure are missing out on a lot of command-line awesomeness. I’ve never heard anyone argue that a GUI is quicker than command line, just more comfortable for a lot of neophytes. I mean, sure, gaming, browsing the web, graphics stuff, GUIs are great, if not essential.
On my private PC, I’m using a GUI/Mouse anyway (browsing, gaming, etc). I have to do 2 clicks to update.
If I use terminal, I have to open terminal, then I have to either login as root or run update as sudo, which means I have to authenticate.
If I already have an open terminal, I might be faster. Otherwise, I’m about as fast as with GUI. In any way, there is no significant benefit to updating software via terminal vs GUI, especially if you are an enduser who does not have significant experience with shells…
For many tasks I agree that a shell is better and faster once you have basic knowledge for it, but it is a reality that many basic users are not used to using a shell or are even scared to use one… And at least since I’ve been use Fedora a couple of years ago, I think using a GUI for basic stuff is reasonably viable without having a significantly worse experience and not comparable with “not using all gears in a car”.
We were talking about normal user stuff that normal users do, not “seriously advanced stuff”… And I agree that most normal users probably don’t want to use terminals because they are not familiar with them. But normal users probably don’t and shouldn’t do “seriously advanced stuff”, no?
Yes, if you are trying to do “serously advanced stuff” (whatever that means), chances are you will probably need a terminal (or a terminal will at least be easier), but you shouldn’t be doing “seriously advanced stuff” unless you know what you are doing anyway…
That experience is highly dependent on the Linux distro you’re using. Steam comes preinstalled on gaming-centric distros like Nobara or Pop!_OS. More “general purpose” distros like Mint or Ubuntu might require adding an apt repository before you can install steam from their GUI package managers, but adding an apt repo can be easily accomplished with a GUI as well.
Basically, if there’s no guide for installing steam for a given distro, or the process of installing steam is more than a couple easy steps, that specific distro probably isn’t well suited to run steam.
Weird, I would expect Steam to be in the Ubuntu repos (assuming that’s what you were using, since you mention apt), but maybe not. As for apt, or apt-get, they are just the terminal equivalent of the GUI package manager (synaptic? it’s been a minute since I ran ubuntu), so if something isn’t in the repos, apt at the terminal won’t find it either.
If it’s not in the repos, you should be able to download and install steam from the website just like you would in windows. It gives you a .deb file which will launch just like an executable installer in Ubuntu.
But to your point, yes, sometimes things in linux take a little extra thinking to get to work. Getting accustomed to the way Linux works can help overcome hiccups like this. Windows has many quirks as well, it’s just that if you use WIndows often you know your way around them.
To install Steam on most distros with popular DE’s, you click the software store to open the software store. If Steam isn’t listed in the front page then just click the search box and start typing Steam.
When you see it, click the install button.
When it is done open it by clicking the Open button or pressing the Windows (or Super) key and type Steam. Click it when you see it.
Even if it is, for whatever reason, not part of the repository you have installed, you can still go on steam’s website and download the package from there… In other words, the worst case scenario is literally the same experience as you would have on windows…
I just wanted to install steam, but it wasn’t in the package manager list.
Maybe you used Debian, which only allows free software in their default repo? But then you won’t be able to just install it with apt either. But even if it is not in the repository, you could still go on steam website and download the package from there, so literally the same experience as on windows…
You don’t have to do seriously advanced stuff on linux to run into issues without using the terminal.
Like what?
It’s not realistic that you don’t have to use the terminal on linux if you want to do any more than web browsing and some text editing, etc.
10 years ago, or maybe even 5 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Not anymore though, not if you use a half-way beginner friendly distro…
Yup, it was debian.
I think I tried adding another repo, but gave up before I got it to work.
I didn’t try to just download the file, because I had done that before and all I could do is extract whatever is inside the file, but not install it.
It was around 2 years ago, maybe Linux has gotten that much more user friendly in the last two years, but I doubt it.
I use and love debian a lot for servers because it is super stable and relatively lightweight, but I definitely would not recommend it for desktops/notebooks, especially not to people new to linux based systems.
It’s super purist about foss, which means you only get free and open source software (no steam, discord, etc) per default and it uses an older kernel (which makes it more stable, but less feature rich and less compatible with new hardware).
If you use something like fedora, linux mint (as far as I heard) or even ubuntu, your experience would probably be a lot better.
Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options
Sadly no. They should be nervous if it’s about making changes to their system. In reality however Windows conditioned them to just click the button labeled “Yes” or “Okay” without even reading the pop-up in the first place.
Compiling from GitHub is cherry picking the worst case especially for “most normal people” and frankly they should be using the software store GUI in their DE to install and update software with nice easy buttons to click.
Frankly software management for a normal person generally is easier on Linux than it is on Windows for stuff made to run on Linux.
But don’t worry someone will respond with nvidia’s shitty proprietary drivers.
Let’s not cherrypick scenarios to try and pretend Linux is easier than Windows. Most normal people are nervous interacting with a GUI pop-up that gives them two options, never mind putting them into a terminal window where they could seriously fuck up their machine. What about clicking the download link on a webpage, clicking next a few times and having them software on your machine, compared to having to build something from GitHub (how many people here have never had to do that?).
Maybe this is a problem that we should be addressing, rather than just making technology more of a black box, and raising generations of people who have no fucking concept of how any of it works.
Lots of people don’t care enough to learn
Those that do probably don’t go to linuxmemes though.
Only two generations were got to be technologically literate.
Greatest and Silent generations helped create computing, Boomers helped create important software such as DOS, Gen X and Millennials helped develop the Web, Gen Z is still going into computing and development jobs and Gen Alpha is too young to consider
If you have a driver’s license, do you know a car works besides the basic maintenance that is checking your oil and keeping the tires inflated? Some people don’t even do that last one, while it’s a thing you should check regularly.
I think it’s a good thing the general public is able to use a computer without knowing the inner workings, but it also shouldn’t be obscured from them if they want to know/learn.
But this is the classic Linux user mentality; Linux shouldn’t get easier, users should get smarter.
If computers can be easier to use then why should people instead sacrifice loads of time learning how to operate them? Most people have other things to be getting on with.
Unless you have a system without a GUI, you don’t need to open a terminal in order to update or install stuff. There is a GUI for that. And no, you don’t need to build stuff from GitHub for normal user stuff…
Not using the terminal is like buying a race car and not using the higher gears. I mean, you can, but what’s the fucking point?
I have a lot more fun in my performance car avoiding the top gears, actually. Like after 3rd im already losing my licence on the spot and getting bent over by the law, higher gears are just that but worse.
Ok so what exactly is the big advantage you get when installing updates from a terminal as opposed to installing it via GUI? If I read your analogy, one could think it is faster, but I don’t think it is.
Hotkey open terminal -> sudo apt update/upgrade -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse. Same with all sorts of tasks.
Hotkey open terminal -> neomutt -> quickly sort/delete/reply -> done. Never had to touch the stupid mouse.
Hotkey open terminal -> scp <info> -> done. Never touched the mouse.
and so on.
If you like using a GUI, use a GUI. I’m not saying you can’t, but you sure are missing out on a lot of command-line awesomeness. I’ve never heard anyone argue that a GUI is quicker than command line, just more comfortable for a lot of neophytes. I mean, sure, gaming, browsing the web, graphics stuff, GUIs are great, if not essential.
On my private PC, I’m using a GUI/Mouse anyway (browsing, gaming, etc). I have to do 2 clicks to update.
If I use terminal, I have to open terminal, then I have to either login as root or run update as sudo, which means I have to authenticate.
If I already have an open terminal, I might be faster. Otherwise, I’m about as fast as with GUI. In any way, there is no significant benefit to updating software via terminal vs GUI, especially if you are an enduser who does not have significant experience with shells…
For many tasks I agree that a shell is better and faster once you have basic knowledge for it, but it is a reality that many basic users are not used to using a shell or are even scared to use one… And at least since I’ve been use Fedora a couple of years ago, I think using a GUI for basic stuff is reasonably viable without having a significantly worse experience and not comparable with “not using all gears in a car”.
I tried that on linux, it doesn’t work if you want to do more than browse the web and other basic stuff.
You can do some seriously advanced stuff on windows using only GUIs
We were talking about normal user stuff that normal users do, not “seriously advanced stuff”… And I agree that most normal users probably don’t want to use terminals because they are not familiar with them. But normal users probably don’t and shouldn’t do “seriously advanced stuff”, no?
Yes, if you are trying to do “serously advanced stuff” (whatever that means), chances are you will probably need a terminal (or a terminal will at least be easier), but you shouldn’t be doing “seriously advanced stuff” unless you know what you are doing anyway…
I just wanted to install steam, but it wasn’t in the package manager list.
Then I tried apt-get and that didnt work, I forgot why.
You don’t have to do seriously advanced stuff on linux to run into issues without using the terminal.
My point was, even if you actually do some advanced stuff on windows you still don’t have to use the terminal.
It’s not realistic that you don’t have to use the terminal on linux if you want to do any more than web browsing and some text editing, etc.
That doesn’t mean that linux is bad, but let’s be realistic about what it is.
That experience is highly dependent on the Linux distro you’re using. Steam comes preinstalled on gaming-centric distros like Nobara or Pop!_OS. More “general purpose” distros like Mint or Ubuntu might require adding an apt repository before you can install steam from their GUI package managers, but adding an apt repo can be easily accomplished with a GUI as well.
Basically, if there’s no guide for installing steam for a given distro, or the process of installing steam is more than a couple easy steps, that specific distro probably isn’t well suited to run steam.
Weird, I would expect Steam to be in the Ubuntu repos (assuming that’s what you were using, since you mention apt), but maybe not. As for apt, or apt-get, they are just the terminal equivalent of the GUI package manager (synaptic? it’s been a minute since I ran ubuntu), so if something isn’t in the repos, apt at the terminal won’t find it either. If it’s not in the repos, you should be able to download and install steam from the website just like you would in windows. It gives you a .deb file which will launch just like an executable installer in Ubuntu. But to your point, yes, sometimes things in linux take a little extra thinking to get to work. Getting accustomed to the way Linux works can help overcome hiccups like this. Windows has many quirks as well, it’s just that if you use WIndows often you know your way around them.
To install Steam on most distros with popular DE’s, you click the software store to open the software store. If Steam isn’t listed in the front page then just click the search box and start typing Steam.
When you see it, click the install button.
When it is done open it by clicking the Open button or pressing the Windows (or Super) key and type Steam. Click it when you see it.
Even if it is, for whatever reason, not part of the repository you have installed, you can still go on steam’s website and download the package from there… In other words, the worst case scenario is literally the same experience as you would have on windows…
Maybe you used Debian, which only allows free software in their default repo? But then you won’t be able to just install it with apt either. But even if it is not in the repository, you could still go on steam website and download the package from there, so literally the same experience as on windows…
Like what?
10 years ago, or maybe even 5 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Not anymore though, not if you use a half-way beginner friendly distro…
Yup, it was debian. I think I tried adding another repo, but gave up before I got it to work. I didn’t try to just download the file, because I had done that before and all I could do is extract whatever is inside the file, but not install it.
It was around 2 years ago, maybe Linux has gotten that much more user friendly in the last two years, but I doubt it.
I use and love debian a lot for servers because it is super stable and relatively lightweight, but I definitely would not recommend it for desktops/notebooks, especially not to people new to linux based systems.
It’s super purist about foss, which means you only get free and open source software (no steam, discord, etc) per default and it uses an older kernel (which makes it more stable, but less feature rich and less compatible with new hardware).
If you use something like fedora, linux mint (as far as I heard) or even ubuntu, your experience would probably be a lot better.
been using linux for a few years both on servers and my pc and I never had to build sth myself
Let’s not cherry pick users then. I don’t care about your normal users. My experience is better on Linux.
Sadly no. They should be nervous if it’s about making changes to their system. In reality however Windows conditioned them to just click the button labeled “Yes” or “Okay” without even reading the pop-up in the first place.
Compiling from GitHub is cherry picking the worst case especially for “most normal people” and frankly they should be using the software store GUI in their DE to install and update software with nice easy buttons to click.
Frankly software management for a normal person generally is easier on Linux than it is on Windows for stuff made to run on Linux.
But don’t worry someone will respond with nvidia’s shitty proprietary drivers.
Most normal people only ever use the browser. Even image or video editing is niche for the average person